Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
From Command And Control To Coaching: What Modern Leaders Must Change
In this episode, Ron talks with entrepreneur and Vistage chair Jim Bramlett about the mindset shifts modern leaders need—moving from command-and-control to coaching, embracing vulnerability, and leaning on peer support instead of leading alone. Jim shares lessons from seven startups, emphasizing the importance of being coachable, hiring for culture over skill, and listening across generations to build trust and accountability. They also explore key ideas from Jim’s book Stop the Hassle, revealing how companies win by delivering convenience, transparent pricing, great user experience, and trust while removing friction the way Amazon, Netflix, and Uber do. The conversation closes with practical guidance on staying curious about AI, borrowing ideas from peers, and starting small to create compounding improvements.
• leading across generations with balance and empathy
• shifting from authority to a coaching mindset
• listening more to build trust and buy-in
• learning from failure and staying coachable
• building a peer circle and finding mentors
• hiring for culture fit and coachability before skills
• avoiding the top-performer to manager promotion trap
• designing customer-centric cultures that measure what buyers value
• delivering convenience, transparent pricing, great experience and trust
• using curiosity to explore AI alongside peers
We ask that you let someone else know about the show. And if you know someone that may be a great guest, send them an email to tell them to get in touch with us.
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host, Leadership Consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now, to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron Harvey.
SPEAKER_02:Good morning, everyone. This is Ron Harvey. I'm the Chief Operating Officer and the Vice President for Global Core Strategies and Consulting, which is a leadership firm, which is um we spend all of our time helping leaders be better connected to their workforce at the end of the day. Once you get to the level of leadership, it's not about your technical abilities or how good you were at doing that thing. And a lot of leaders struggle there. We spend all of our time helping leaders figure out how to make the transition, to take better care of their people and let their people do what they're really good at. I wish I was as good as I was at something when I was younger. Reality, that's not the best use of my energy. So we spend all of our time helping leaders do that. But we're not here really to talk about what Global Core does. What we're really here to is to let our guests share some wisdom and some insight and some fun and some lessons learned. And so I'm super excited to have Jim joining with us. And always, if you follow us, always give the microphone to our guests and allow them to introduce themselves in any way that they feel and share what they want to share before we get into you know a rich conversation for about 20 minutes. So, Jim, I'm gonna hand the mic over to you, man, and step out your way and let you introduce yourself however you wish or share what you want, a book, a show, or whatever you're doing. You know, introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, Ron. I appreciate that. And it's a pleasure to be unpacked. Uh my name's Jim Bramlett. Um, I grew up in the Midwest. Uh someone say I'm a little bit of a serial entrepreneur. I've uh started seven companies over my uh career, uh, four of them for myself, made some just awful uh mistakes, and but I learned from those. And it all led to me writing two books um uh from the lessons I learned and from observing some of the most successful companies out there like Amazon, Netflix, and Uber. But I'm very passionate about what you're passionate about, and that's leaders. Being a leader is hard, it's just flat out heart. And so three years ago, I became a chair for Vistich, and it's a CEO peer advisory group. And my passion is helping leaders succeed. Um, and uh because I just believe in in their passion and and and want to see that they put all this effort in and you know benefit and especially benefit their employees and their community, um, because it's it's a very hard journey, as I've uh come to know. My book is called Stop, my latest book is called Stop the Hassle. It's all about uh people, process, and product, and I really focus a lot on the product being very, very important and what buyers are looking for uh from any company. And so I just kind of I wrote that out, uh, in inserted some culture, and uh I I like to promote that because I think uh well if a seller truly knows the buyer psychology and can match that up, they're they're more apt to find success than uh making it all about themselves, which which I see too all too often as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Jim. I mean, I I mean you're of course, you know, so you looked at the podcast and and you know that's kind of where we want to spend time is. You let me unpack a little bit where you're oftentimes in leadership roles, it is very difficult. Have you seen it over the years, starting seven businesses, writing two books, you know, and you know, chairing, you know, vintage, which is a phenomenal group for you that don't know it, go out and Google it, look it up. It's a phenomenal CEO peer group. But but have you seen leadership change? Uh and the reason I ask that, I'm a veteran. There was a command and control in uniform, um, even in organizations. And it and for me, I had to adjust over the years because it got away from command and control. Just say it and people do it. That's not reality. What are the changes you've noticed in leadership over the years?
SPEAKER_00:No, the change I've seen recently is now good leaders have to manage multi-generational workforces. And you know, I'm a boomer, and I joked about this that I grew up in the carrot and the stick era. I don't remember much about the carrot. I do remember the stick. Um, but I don't think that works today for all generations. I think the younger generation is looking for much more of a work-life balance, and and and I don't blame them, but it it takes a different acumen uh and skill set, I believe, to manage across those multi-generations. And most importantly, leadership is a skill set. And and I and I talk about this, and you know this probably more than anybody. I don't believe there's very many schools that teach leadership, they teach you a discipline, a skill. It's the military academies, right? Or being in the military. That's they're all about teaching leadership. But so many leaders get into their position because they know a certain discipline or a skill. And and and yet, well, how are you at motivating, inspiring, and dealing with the most important part? People, because you're in a people business no matter what you do. That that's the real challenge, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, so for you, I mean, you're a boomer and you're looking at those generations. What do you tell someone that that's a boomer like you to get better at or stop doing because it's a struggle? I mean, you built this company, you've been around, you have a legacy, and don't they know who I am mentality? What do you tell leaders that that are like you and I that have been there, done it, and life has changed right in front of us? Can you hear me?
SPEAKER_00:I can. You know, the one concept in our world is change. So, you know, how you did five years ago, how you did that what's really uh notable in today's world is chaos. Something's gonna get in the way, be it be it COVID, now be it tariffs, um you know, be it not having enough qualified people, there's always going to be some form of chaos that I that I believe you know a leader has to deal with uh in today's world. It's it's just the fact. And and it may not have been that way back when I started out. It was, I think, maybe more, you know, you kind of knew the journey, and but boy, chaos uh wears its ugly head in today's world all too often. And it and a leader has to deal with that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I love that you're going there too. Um when you think about it, Jim, as we look at chaos is everywhere, it's constantly changing, a lot of pressure on leaders. How do leaders, you know, what are some characteristics of leaders that do well um when leading through chaos? What are some of the things that that you think are super important to lead effectively doing chaos?
SPEAKER_00:I think uh here's one thing I emphasize uh to the leaders I work with. Uh I believe the very best leaders are or need to be coaches, but they've never been trained on being coach. And and the skills of a coach are being able to ask the appropriate questions, you know, talk 20% of the time, listen 80% of the time versus what you might consider uh most leaders doing, which is 10 of the time and and listening 20. So when you can engage and and get your buy-in from those on your team, uh you're gonna do better than if you stand alone and and try and make all the decisions yourself and uh and and go forward that way. It takes a team and being able to coach and engage your people, I think, is one of the most important traits of a leader today.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Have you have you noticed over time, Jim? What's one of the things that, you know, once you're in a leadership role to make yourself approachable and accessible, how do you get there? Because oftentimes you think like you can't be, you know, I was taught, you know, don't let them see you sweat, don't let them see the other human side of you, always be very stoic. That's changed. But how do you help get to this place where you still can hold people accountable, but you don't have to be mean, you don't have to be this person that that's not approachable. I've seen a challenge oftentimes is leading while also being a human being and being approachable.
SPEAKER_00:Well, one of the things I ask uh of my vista members is is come to every meeting being vulnerable. If you if you show that you don't know it all, that you need help, guess what? People are gonna lean in, they're gonna want to help educate you, and they're gonna want to help you. That's our human nature, is we want to help. But if you don't express that you need that help or show that you need that help, so uh I I know it sounds maybe uh hard to think about, but when you're vulnerable with your team, they're gonna want to help you. It's not a sign of weakness. And and so uh I I think being a little bit vulnerable, admitting that you need help, you want, you want input, you want their ideas, it's just creates a tighter team, and and and those leaders who can do that uh are are likely to be more successful than those who can't.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, let's unpack that for a while because it is it is a change. How do you get there though? I mean, because oftentimes you'll talk, you like you almost have to have all the answers, but when you get promoted, you're getting promoted because of your skill, you're getting promoted because of what you know, you're getting promoted because of what you used to do, and we expect for you to take this team. So there's this this unwritten expectation of you're supposed to know everything, and and and it's dangerous to be vulnerable. How did you make the shift?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think I and I tell people this. Look, I've way long time ago, I had a mentor who said, Before you can succeed, you must fail. Otherwise, you don't know what success really is. Well, I took it to heart and I did fail. And it's very humbling. Um, and and I give a lot of credit to those who do fail, but they get back up on that horse and say, you know what, I learned, I learned a lesson, I'm gonna apply it now, and and I'm gonna go forward. And I think that's what happened to me. Um, you know, one of the and you know, this common characteristics of any leader is I believe they're lifelong learners, and and they the best leaders constantly want to learn. They want to open their ears, they want to open their brains, and they want input uh from other people and learn. And that that takes vulnerability and uh you know, get back up on that horse, learn your lessons the hard way if it's got to be the hard way, and get back up on that horse and ride that that horse again.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. I want to tap into thank you for sharing. I want to tap into something you said when you first started explaining how to get through that failure. You mentioned the word mentor. What role, you know, for all the people that are listening, you know, how important was it for you to have a mentor? And how did you you how do you pick one?
SPEAKER_00:That's a great question. You know, and I I reflect back now. I don't think I picked a mentor. I had somebody kind of just reach out and want to help. And um I don't know why. Um, I I wish I'd been smart enough to say, you know what, I do need a mentor and I'm gonna go find somebody. Um, but I didn't. I just got lucky, I think, and had somebody, maybe they liked me, but but and they've been an experienced business leader, an entrepreneur, and he just kind of leaned in and every now and then would say, Hey, mind if I you know share something with you. No, go ahead. And and those those wise words were always uh beneficial because once you've been down that track and you learn and you're willing to share, um it it it's invaluable. Uh about four years ago, I ran into that, and you may know this when the African proverb that says, if you want to go fast, go alone, if you want to go far, go together. And man, when I read that four years ago, I go, Amen. That is so important. And and when I started with vistage, I I I was telling people, you don't you may not realize this, but all of you parents have become part of peer groups. Because when you have when you have your first child, the hospital doesn't send you annual thing you need to do over the next 20 years. So what do you do? You well, you you might you might go to your parents and get a little advice, but you probably go, Well, they're a whole different generation, they can't relate, they don't live with me. And so what you do, you bond with others like entrusted people, which are probably parents, and say, Man, I'm having this issue. Oh, well, I had that issue too, and here's what I did. Oh, good advice. And and so we naturally as humans, we we tend to stick to to peers or or like-minded others. And and so if you do it as a in normal everyday life, say as a parent or otherwise, why don't you do that in business? It's it's not a sign of weakness of you working with others to get advice, get guidance. It's gonna help you. And people love giving that kind of advice and guidance.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I love that you go in there. Um, and here's why. Oftentimes we have a lot of business owners that listen to the show, and and there's this fear of, you know, I can't let everybody know what I'm doing, or I can't share information. It's almost like this, I gotta protect my turf or my territory and and intellectual property, which means they don't collaborate and they don't share as much, and they're very protective of everything that they're doing. And with AI today, I mean, it's yeah, I mean, what's what's what's real like what can you protect with AI today? So, with that being said, have you seen a shift in how important is it to collaborate with other people that may do something similar to what you're doing, sometimes even identical, just so you can learn from them and be in a room and not feel threatened by them. How do you how do you get there? Because a lot of business owners are threatened by people that do what they do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh great point. Um I do I do exactly what you said on AI, and and I joke, I say, Hey, everybody see this gray hair? I was around in 1995 when this thing called the World Wide Web came out. And I know people back then who said, Oh, it's a fad, it's never gonna last, you know, I'm not gonna put any energy into it. Well, you can't be that way with AI. Now, I can't tell you how you should think about and deploy AI in your organization, but I have to encourage you to be curious. And by you talking to your peers, you're might you're you're probably going to get some ideas. Oh, Charlie's doing that. Hmm. I need to, I need to think about that. And and that is what you need. You need to have an open mind, you need to be curious, you need to ask others what they're doing, what they're thinking, and then go out and and start researching and applying it for your situation. But that's some how you get some of the best ideas by talking to others and and and being open like that. And I I Ron, I think that AI is an outstanding example of that because everybody gets inundated with AI, this, AI, that, and a lot of them don't even know where to start. Okay, well, talk to your peers. Where did they start? What are they doing? That might stimulate an idea that you want to then go run with.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love that you keep bringing up the the peer. I mean, you know, and that's a vista's model as well, is having a circle of peers that continue to help you stay, you know, ahead and advance and what's going on. What what you started seven businesses. What's the you know, as you've done it, um I'm sure you've had your your lessons learned um to help you. What's what's the probably the the one thing that you you wish you didn't have to go through, but it taught you the most valuable lesson?
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, I I I joked. I started my first business when I was in college, and it was not well thought out, it was dumb, it and it failed miserably. Learned a lesson, started another one five years ago. It was all about me, not customers, failed miserably. And I tell people I my my first real business was in 1999. I raised some venture capital. This was back in the dot-com uh hysteria, and I all of a sudden I had a board of directors who are our investors, never had a board of directors before, and I was the visionary, I had never been a leader like that. And I've got, you know, ultimately 40 people and 40 families. This that's a big burden, right? And and now I've got this board, and and the one thing I learned quickly is you don't take all your issues to the board because then they're gonna say, Well, we just don't have that right person in the chair, we're gonna have to find the right person. And I reflect back and I go, Well, I couldn't take my challenges to my team because some of those challenge was about the team, and I had nowhere to turn, and my wife didn't want to hear about it, and it it became very lonely. Um I'm on upstairs, 365, 24-7. I'm thinking, and it just it was tough, it was really tough, and now that I reflect back, I go, man, I wish I had actively gone after mentors or peers or somebody who could help me because I I had not been in that position before, and and um I made a ton of mistakes, a ton of mistakes. And I and I I look back now and go, you know, had I had the right um knowledge base to tap into, maybe I wouldn't have made all those mistakes. And and it wasn't the board that was the knowledge base. Yeah, they're smart people, but again, I felt reserved. I didn't want to share that. Man, I'm challenged here because I I like my job. I wanted to stay there. And and so that's the biggest lesson I think that if I reflect back on, man, set yourself up if you're in a situation where you really haven't been there before and and you don't know all of the avenues available to you, go get help, get help. You know, with peers, mentors, coaches, whatever it is, go get help. I wish I had done that. It would have probably turned out a little differently.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, thank you. I mean, valuable information. You know, um, how do you get to that place of being vulnerable, um, asking for help? What was it? How important it was it for you to be, once you ask for the help, to be coachable? Because oftentimes you may people want to help you, but sometimes you're not even ready to receive the feedback, you're not coachable, and you got to answer for everything that they say to you, you have a response. And sometimes you just don't have a response. You just don't know. And and being able to say that, how important is it for me as a leader to be coachable?
SPEAKER_00:Extremely um I I believe there are people who uh want the best and they're likely to be culchable, and then there are people who want the most and they're not as coachable. Um I'm a big believer that not everybody is culchable, and and so you know, when you're one of the things I tell my my leaders is probably the most important thing you do as a leader is hire others. You're in the get it right business and put put the skill set in the background, focus on the culture. Are they going to be a good fit in your organization? Are they going to um match the culture that you have fostered? And are they coachable? Because if they come in and they know it all and they don't think they need any help, uh probably not going to end well. And when you hire badly, it's expensive and it's painful. And in a lot of my I talk about this example all the time. One of the one of the big mistakes I've made it in my life, and I've seen it happen, is you take your very best salesperson, and when there's an opening for sales leadership, oh, you've generated the most numbers. Congratulations, you're now sales manager. Well, that doesn't mean they know how to inspire and motivate other salespeople to to bring out their best, it just means they were able to close more deals. And and and so I think people make that mistake uh about you know promoting and hiring. And I I have become a huge culture guy that says start with culture and then find the find the skill set uh after the after you've sure that they'll they'll match the culture that you're fostering at your organization.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, and and you know, I love the language that you're saying. It's how do you get there? You know, what build the culture, you know, of where people want to be a part of it. They want it, they see your vision and your dream, and and can you get out of the way to let them help you achieve it? Oftentimes, I think we we see it, and then when people begin to help us, you know, we want to jump in in the driver's seat again. You know, I tell them, no, let them drive the vehicle. It's okay. You know, you got guardrails up in processes and procedures to keep your organization safe, but stop grabbing the steering wheel, let someone else drive. It's so important in your organization. People want to help you be successful. I want to go to your book as we use our time here. You know, stop the hassle. You know, uh, you have a book out and stop the hassle. Can you speak more to what do you want people to walk away that are interested in this now and reading the book? And share a little bit the inside the insider scoop of what do you want us to walk away with?
SPEAKER_00:Stop the hassle, is uh the the hassle is I both you and I are buyers, everybody listening, we buy things, okay? So there's a psychology to us buyers, and and it's this we we really are looking for four things, four major categories. We're looking for convenience, price, but it doesn't necessarily be the lowest price, but we definitely like pricing transparency. I don't like the fine print and the add-ons and and the surprises. I want a great user experience. I want to be treated like I'm the only customer, even though I know I'm not. I want to be treated specially, I want quick answers to my question. And then I want to trust. I want to trust that I'm going to get A, what I'm perceiving to buy, or B what you're advertising or promoting. And I want all four of those. And unfortunately, most companies have some sort of trade-off. Well, I'm going to give you a great price, but that user experience, uh, you know, it isn't going to be great. Or I'm going to make it very convenient for you, but you're going to have to pay, you know, a premium. And in my book, I reflect on Amazon, Netflix, and Uber, who I think provide all four. They provide convenience, saving time, effort, simple, easy, uh, competitive pricing that's transparent, an awesome user experience, and and they have you know easy returns, guarantees, warranties, testimonials, all the things that are involved in being able to trust. And when you can hip on all four, it doesn't leave a buyer an excuse to shop elsewhere. But far too many companies say, well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to trade off that. They're not going to get you know easy returns because I'm giving them such a great price up front. And then we have an excuse to go elsewhere. So it's it's a hard equation to hit on all four, but hitting on as many as you can um will will deliver the value, and because that's what we value, uh to buyers. And then I then translate that on the second half of the book. I do talk about culture. I but I'm very big in a customer-centric culture. I believe in constant research. What are the customers saying? What are your prospects? Why aren't they buying from you? Big on innovation, how do you continuously innovate to keep competitors uh at bay and measuring you know, KPIs? I joke, but I, you know, I've been in a lot of businesses, and and in over 40 years, anybody I ever worked for, we never started a meeting. Hey, we're going to talk about how many customers we gained and why, and we're going to talk about how many customers we lost and why. It always every meeting started with let's talk about our revenue and let's talk about our budget and let's talk about our costs and our IT project. Me, me, me, me, me. Well, you know, Amazon's, I think, one of the best ones. It was all about the customer. And I I love Jeff Bezos. And when he was uh he was a clown back in the uh late 90s, he was vilified by Wall Street because he kept burning cash, but he was steadfast. This is not about us, it's about giving the customer what they want. He won. He won. And that's that's what I preach in my book.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I love it. I mean, and so those of you that are listening, I mean, you you know what Jim just walked through, four things that are super important, and and it's one of the things that that will be the differentiator for anybody, regardless of what business you're in, whether it's service or product or commodities, whatever your business. I can tell you, I go back to the days of when you when you go to buy a car, you know, you know, one thing you don't get is convenience. You're gonna have a pricing, and they don't give you the best price up front. The experience depends on your credit score, and you don't have a lot of trust. You always feel like you're gonna go into a car dealership and they're gonna take advantage of you. And that doesn't mean that's reality, but that's most people's experience purchasing vehicles, so you get frustrated at purchasing a vehicle. So if you're listening to this, what Jim just shared, those are four things that that actually matter to every single customer, regardless of what they're buying. If you can do that, you're guaranteed to be successful.
SPEAKER_00:Yep, and all you got to do is is evaluate your competitors, be more convenient than them, price competitively with them, give a better experience than them, and and be more trustworthy than them, and you will get the customers. You don't have a world standard for convenience and and experience, gauge it off your competitors. It's it's like the Miami Dolphins are are concerned about their next opponent and what they do well and how to beat that next opponent. Every business needs to pay attention to their competitors, be more convenient, price competitively, give a better experience and be more trustworthy, and you will win business. That's what it's about.
SPEAKER_02:I love it. I love it. So, two two questions as we begin to wrap up. Um, one is where can they find your book? And then how do they get back in touch with you if they want to have a conversation with you outside of this podcast?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, certainly. Uh, you can buy my book on Amazon, you can buy my book at jimbramlett.com. Um, and I've got two books, but uh that last one is stop the hassle. And then I'm very active on LinkedIn, or you can reach out to me by going to my website, jimbramlett.com.
SPEAKER_02:Awesome, awesome. Jim, phenomenal. Thank you for coming on, you know, and the work that you're doing. And if you don't know about Vistach, you know, uh, we'll probably bring Jim back on and he'll be able to explain to you. But it's a phenomenal group that you you really want if you're going to be successful. It's almost like having your own your own board of advisors, if you will, if you go to Vista. So it's a phenomenal group. So and we all got to have circles that help us grow. Um, for all you that are listening, thank y'all for joining us. Jim and I have enjoyed the time to share with you some some behind the scenes unpacking things with you about what's making Us successful, um, what were our struggles? What were our mistakes? We ask that you uh let someone else know about the show. And if you know someone that may be a great guest, send them an email to tell them to get in touch with us. We'd love to have guests um to share with our community about making them better. This is all about professional development and helping people get better. This is our way of giving back to our entire community. Um, Jim, any any pardon words, any last-minute thoughts you want to share with anyone?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, Ron, thank you for what you do because leaders need help, and you're out here trying to help them and guide them. So, thank you for what you do. Leaders, don't go it alone. Get help somehow. Mentors, coaches, peers, get help. It'll help you in the long term.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. Thank you, Jim. It's been awesome for everyone with you. Thank you for joining us. Until next time, Jim and I will be signing off, and we look forward to you joining us again on another show.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpack Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron Unpacks Sound Advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are or the people you serve. Because people always matter.
