Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
From Character To Competence: Leadership That Lasts with Todd Davis
We explore how character and competence turn titles into true leadership, why trust is built on observable behaviors, and how humility accelerates growth across five generations at work. Todd Davis shares practical ways to measure integrity, make feedback safe, and lead for results without clinging to old rules.
• leadership as a choice grounded in character and competence
• four cores of credibility and how to show integrity and intent
• behaviors that raise or erode trust on teams
• rebuilding trust through humility and advance feedback requests
• replacing fake it till you make it with transparent learning and reps
• leading Gen Z with purpose, flexibility and clarity on outcomes
• results over facetime and the case for autonomy
• three anchors for leaders: check your lens, listen to understand, start with humility
• recommended resources: The 7 Habits, The Speed of Trust, Get Better, Everyone Deserves a Great Manager
“Remember to join us every Monday as Ron unpacks sound advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges.” “Add value and make a difference where you are for the people you serve. Because people always matter.”
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Unpack Podcast with your host, Leadership Consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now, to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron Harvey.
SPEAKER_01:Good morning. This is Ron Harvey, the Vice President, the Chief Operating Officer for Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Excited to be with you once again. Of course, if you follow us, you know we're a leadership development firm based out of Columbia, South Carolina. And everything we do is around leadership development and really driving it on the concern that people always matter. And so we we that's one of our frameworks of doing leadership. But we do the podcast, and the podcast really allows us to have guests from around the world, um, phenomenal leaders that are doing great things. And our guest today has been with an organization for 29 years. I won't steal any of his thunder, um, but happy to have Todd on with us. Uh, super excited. So let me uh hand over the mic to Todd Davis and I'll let him tell you where he's coming from. Um if you're watching, you see as you know it, but I'm gonna let him introduce himself and then we'll get started into the podcast. Todd, thank you for saying yes to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Hey, thank you for the invitation, Ron. Appreciate being here and great to have the opportunity to meet you and your audience. Uh as Ron said, my name is Todd Davis. I've been with Franklin Covey for 29 years, last month. I'm I'm now starting my 30th year. And uh for 18 of those years, I served as Franklin Covey's chief people officer over the human resource function and some of the other operations. And then about three years ago, I stepped down from that role to move into a full-time consultant role where I get to do fun things like this and meet with our clients and prospective clients around the world. So excited to be here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And thank you so much for saying yes to this opportunity. I mean, one of the things that we do really, really well, um, and we get a fun time to do is helping people really have the conversations that um that all of them want to have around the work that we do. So you've been with Franklin Covey for a while. Um, super excited about that. When you start thinking about your your journey in leadership, where would you start at? You know, to get us understanding like the work that you're doing, um, how much fun you've had in it. How did you get into leadership?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, it was never, I was like, I think uh 80% of the population. I kept thinking each year, what am I going to do when I grow up? What am I gonna do when I grow up? And and so it wasn't a a uh direct plan that I had mapped out as a young child, but I I uh I do remember, and I haven't thought about this for a while, but as you asked that question, I do remember when I was applying for a job at a bank in college, uh, and and I applied, and they told me I'd hear back that week, and a week went by and another week went by. And I remember as a young kid feeling frustrated that I hadn't heard, and and I and I don't even know if I really understood what human resources was then or the function of that, but I remember thinking, boy, if I'm ever in a position where somebody's anxiously awaiting to hear whether they got a job or not, I'm gonna make sure that they hear sooner than later. And so when I think back on that experience, that may have been when I first um decided I want to do something um where I could help help people. And your your uh tagline about people matter, when I got your invitation to join Ron, I've just got to tell you, I don't know if you can see this, but my little card holder, my little card holder here says inclusion, and then underneath it it says people matter. And I have had that on my on my desk uh uh and now at my home office desk where I work virtually uh forever because I I I felt a connection with you when I saw the phrase people matter, and I thought I could not agree more. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. And I want to and thank you for sharing that too, because it's it's like a framework of understanding. So you think of it from an HR standpoint, Franklin Cubby has a phenomenal reputation. You guys are always adding value. I mean, I follow you, I listen to the work that you do. You know, what how do you get leaders from an HR standpoint to really hone in on this people? Because you can have technology, you got resources, you got financial capital, but people always say people are the most valuable asset. How do you explain that from your lens? How do leaders get better at making sure they put leaders people as a priority?
SPEAKER_02:Well, great question. What we have learned uh and and have been in the leadership space for 40 years. And so while we don't we don't claim to be experts uh at everything, we humbly uh share that uh most people, most clients of the world, Taudis is one of the most trusted leadership organizations in the world. And and to get specifically to your question, our mission and our formal mission statement and our true mission is to enable greatness in people and organizations everywhere. And I'm biased, I've been here 29 years, so I love our mission statement. But most importantly, and and tied to what you just asked, we truly believe, we truly believe that greatness lies within everyone. Everyone aspires to be part of something that matters and that makes a difference. And and so to be be a part of something that helps bring that out in others is really what our mission is, and it's what we um instill in great leaders around the world. To date, we have developed over 30 million leaders, uh, and and we tout that as the number you uh you maybe remember the old McDonald's Arch assigns that had under those that said over 60 billion served, and that number keeps growing. Well, that 30 million number, it keeps growing too, because it's what we do every day. And so we we attract and look for people who are excited about helping others um reach their full potential. And so, and so that's our that's our foundational philosophy on leadership. And we truly believe that leadership is a choice, not a position. I mean, yes, it's a title and a position, but but you think about in your career, and I think about in mine, there are many untitled leaders that I chose to follow because they inspired me. They had the both the character and the competence. And those are the two buckets that we, you know, should all aspire to to be a leadership, have both the character and the competence to be truly a great leader, and a leader that people are inspired to follow, not because they're responsible for their next raise or their next promotion, but because they have the credibility that inspires us to want to follow them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Todd. So you so I you know I have to unpack that because you know, right now there are five generations in the workforce, it's changed drastically. And people bring up in most of the workshops or the work that we get to do in coaching and helping leaders, character comes up quite often. People are starting to ask us as leaders, what what is it? Like, what is how do you how do you measure it? Because people get caught up in results, and right now there's a character challenge, you know, in in the industry across the board, especially for leaders in all industries. What how do we help leaders really, really get to a place where they're someone worth following?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so it's I I I love that thought and that question. And you're right, results matter. I mean, at the end of the day, we're all paid to get our results, but but often we can get so with with good intentions, we can become so focused on those results that we forget or don't pay attention to the part about how do we get those results. And so, and so that's where the character comes in. You know, we have this balance of character and competence, and we measure character and we encourage others to measure character by what we call the four cores of credibility: your integrity, your intent, then your capabilities and your results, but but primarily on character, your integrity and your intent. And and you know, how do you measure a person's integrity? We can't see we upon first meeting, I don't see your integrity, you don't see my integrity. We we don't have the benefit of like a Wi-Fi signal above our heads saying, oh, he's got strong integrity or she's got you know strong integrity. But but over often a short period of time, we can start to get a sense of someone's integrity. Do they say what they do they do what they say they're going to do? Do they follow through on their commitments to to not only to us, but to themselves? Do they, you know, are they do they have that discipline? And then their intent. What is their real intent? We like to we like to think about, we teach uh I facilitate a work session called The Speed of Trust. It's based on one of Stephen M. R. Covey's best-selling books, uh, The Speed of Trust, Leading at the Speed of Trust. And we use the analogy of a tree and we look at the the four cores of credibility. The the core of integrity is the root system. It's below the ground, we can't see it. But boy, if we have shallow, uh weak roots, that tree is going to topple over very quickly. And so think about your own roots of integrity. And do I, you know, everything I base myself on, is it is it truly deep, pervasive roots? Roots that intertwine with roots of other trees. If anybody's been to the the the tall redwoods of California, you know that they, you understand, I mean, these things are massively tall and they they maintain their strength through this interconnected root system. So your integrity, think of it as your roots. And then your intent, we think of think of as just the the beginnings of the tree, the stump of the tree, just barely above the ground. And are people clear on your intent? Do you do you declare your intent enough? Do you are you sure of what your intent is? And then are you making sure others are clear on your intent? So those are the two cores we talk about. We talk about character and and one's own credibility. And then, of course, your capabilities, we we we you know, the metaphor continues on with those being the branches that carry the nutrients and everything else, the skills that you have to the end result, to the fruit or the blossoms or whatever the tree produces. And so while it is difficult to measure character, you can measure character. You can you can measure someone's uh uh consistency on being true uh to themselves and staying true in their commitments and and doing the right things even when it's hard. Now, one thing I'll tell you about my competency I've got to get better on is I I could ramble a little bit. You ask me if you're doing that and I get one of them, I get passionate about it, and I think, oh, wait a minute, maybe Ron has something to say about this. So you'll have to remind me and forgive me because when I when I talk about this topic of leadership, it's why I've been here for 30 years.
SPEAKER_01:Todd, you're doing exactly what what this podcast is about is to be able to share years of experience. So it's not even about you know what I have to say. The guests come on and say, look, it's all about the guests. So you're you're spot on, you're doing exactly what people enjoy about the podcast. I want to unpack for a second, though, when you talk about integrity and the ability to measure it, and then you came back and you you know you teach the course of trust, which which is tied to that, right? People people give us a score, if you will, they evaluate us on a scale of one to ten, on can they trust us, and that's directly connected to our integrity. So can you speak more about how trust and integrity are aligned? And how do people judge you based on and it's not when things are going well they're judging you, it's when your back is against the wall, they're judging you. Like, are you doing the right thing when it's almost impossible sometimes?
SPEAKER_02:Well, when I'm when I'm coaching others and when I'm leading a work session on trust, um, whether it's in person, live uh or or virtually, um, I ask the question, we ask the question, first of all, think about in your career, think about someone, think about a leader who you trusted. We have if I ask you to think about one of the most trustworthy leaders you've had in your career, and you think about that person, and then I would ask you, and and I'll ask your audience and you to do this kind of mentally right now, but but identify right down in your mind or think about what are some of the things, the specific things that she or he did or does, if it's your current leader, that caused you to think of their name. What is it that they do or did? And when I asked this question, and you're all thinking of those things, but but often people will say, well, they they gave me challenges. They didn't go easy on me, but I knew all the time that they were most concerned about my development. They made it safe to make mistakes. That's a common one that comes up. They they didn't chastise me for making mistakes, they helped me learn from my mistakes. They um they were transparent, they you know, so to speak, got down the trenches with me. They listened, they were a great listener, they um were really clear on the expectations, they set you know very clear expectations, they righted wrongs when they were made a mistake, they were quick to apologize, even though they were the leader. And sometimes leaders don't think they make mistakes. So they start to list the behaviors of a high trust leader. And then I asked them of the obvious, maybe not so obvious question about I want you to think about a leader that you've had that you didn't trust. Okay, probably a good person, but but but think about someone who you trusted a lot less. And what did they do? And the easy answer is to say, well, the opposite of everything we just said, but but also when you push a little bit and you think, and I'll think right now about a leader that I didn't trust as much, they they uh showed up differently at work every day. I never knew who was going to show up. They had a different reaction to certain things that I didn't trust. I didn't have the confidence in how they would show up. They were not clear on their expectations and or the goal or the results, the the uh details of what they were going for kept changing. I saw them sometimes take credit for work they had not done, but were more concerned about them looking good than making sure their team looked good. And so when you when you get deep into it and you think about those things, then you ask yourself, now hold up the mirror and what of those behaviors do you model? How do you model those behaviors? What have you done? What did you do last week to model those behaviors of a great leader? Are you as clear on your expectations with your team? Do you show up the the same way every day? Or does your mood impact the way that you um create or don't create a safe space for others? Things like that. Is that is that responsive?
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. I mean, I mean it's it's right in alignment because it's giving some impractical tools of you know, what are the questions that you're using um to help people be able to clarify and identify? Like, because people are are looking at those tangible things. So I'm glad that you're gonna learn that space. The question I have for you, Todd. I mean, you share uh here's what you look for, here's a here's someone you really, really trust, and someone you you trust less. What do you tell leaders that are listening that may have made some mistakes and and lost some trust? How do they begin to rebuild?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I I say, you know, humility. I I have been honored during my time at Franklin Covey to write a couple of books that have become bestsellers, not because anybody knows who Todd Davis is, but because the content and my my experience in in being the chief people officer for nearly two decades was such a benefit to observe those leaders who were just phenomenal leaders, both character and competence, and those leaders that really struggled. And in one of the books I wrote, it's called Get Better, 15 Proven Practices to Build Effective Relationships at Work. The 15th practice is to start with humility. And so to answer your question, I would say to those leaders, start with humility. Have the humility to say, I don't have to be the smartest in the room. In fact, the best leaders aren't. A wise leader of mine many years ago, she she shared a phrase with me that I have thought of to this day. It was 30 years ago. Well, yeah, 29 years ago, she hired me at the Covey Leadership Center. And she said, remember that A's hire A pluses and B's hire C's. Meaning, excuse me, if I'm an A player, I surround myself with people smarter than I am. I surround myself with all the A pluses. If I'm a B player, I surround myself with C's and D's because nobody's gonna be smarter than I am. And really good people can slip into that mentality. We get into a leadership role and we think, oh, I've got to know every answer because if I don't, I'm gonna lose credibility. Well, just the opposite. To show that I don't have the answer to this or that I don't have the answer to that. That's why I've got you on the team, because you're so good at this thing, you're so good at that thing. And so surrounding yourself with that talent. So the starting place, if I want to improve my leadership and the credibility that I have with others, is to be vulnerable, to get with my team and say, hey, look, we have we have a structure here because we have to have organization to a process to get things done. I'm here as the as the leader of that process. But please don't confuse the term leader with I know everything and we're going to do everything my way. I am so glad you're on my team and I would like to get your feedback on how I could continually get better. Another practice I have in that book is called make it safe to tell the truth. And the best leaders acknowledge that as a leader, even through no fault of my own, because I have the title of leader, I've already made it a little unsafe for you to tell me the truth. And so leaders have to go above and beyond to make it safe for team members and others to tell them the truth. How do we do that? Well, don't just walk up to somebody and ask them for feedback because any one of us put on the spot is going to tell people what they want to hear. You know, if I were to immediately, Ron, even in this, even in this discussion you and I are having, if I were to call you up the minute we finish here and I say, hey, Ron, what did you think? Well, most people are going to say, Oh, oh, oh, well, it was great, Todd. But but if I called you yesterday and I said, hey, Ron, I'm excited for our discussion tomorrow. Could I ask you a favor? In addition to hosting this and having this discussion, would you mind taking some notes on things that you think I could do better? And then when you have time in the coming weeks, we could get together and you could share with me that feedback. That little interaction is how you make it safe for others to tell you the truth. Prepare people in advance. Prepare people in advance. Be willing, leaders, to ask the kind of questions. Hey, sure, I'd love to know what you think I'm doing well, but where do you really think I could get better? I'm I'm intent on getting better and better. And I know that the best people, the best leaders, you they never arrive. You continually focus on getting better. Even if I'm the CEO or the president of a company, the minute I stop thinking that there's areas for me to get better in, that's the day that I should maybe stop leading.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love it. I love that you said, you know, you know, make sure you prepare people to give you feedback in advance. And then ask the question and make it safe. You know, and and you led right into because I was I was going to unpack. Like, how do you do that? You know, people do say, hey, make it safe. Well, what does that look like if I don't know? Um, or or if I'm um I'm I'm one of those people who won't be vulnerable. Um, I'm I'm nervous about me not looking good. You know, how do I get, or if I'm I bring some insecurity with me, or if I have an ego, how do I make it safe? Because those things do show up in leaders, egos and vulnerability and insecure. You know, how do I make it safe when I don't feel safe to share that?
SPEAKER_02:And and my response to that, and and maybe uh, you know, you hear often that as people become more seasoned, I'll say, it comes with age and seasoning, but it gets most people I've met, certainly myself, I get more comfortable with just telling it like it is. And so I will sit with if I have a new team reporting to me, I will sit with them and I'll say, Hey, um, how many in here have ever felt vulnerable or insecure in any role you've been in? Everybody will raise their hand. Most people will raise their hand. And then I'll say, Well, as your new chief people officer, I gotta tell you, I have those same insecurities. So you need to know that while I'm honored to be in this role of your team leader or your vice president or whatever it is, I'm also anxious about doing a good job. So please know that I don't, and I would just tell people like it is. And I'll tell you, if I could go back, you know, people often will ask others the question if you could go back and tell your younger self something, what would it be? Mine would be be more. Comfortable just being real. Even at a younger age, just be open and transparent and say, hey, I get that I'm in the leader role. I'm going to make a lot of mistakes. I am going to ask you all to be comfortable with telling me what I need to course correct. And just like I want to be comfortable with you telling you the same thing, but let's help each other all get better. Yes, at the end of the day, I'm in the formal leadership role, and I'll try and help us come to a collaborative decision together. But please know that I'm learning right alongside with you. Think about that. If your leader said that to you and she was sincere or he was sincere, that's somebody you want to follow, right? And so my number one advice is just to be transparent. Be yourself. Don't worry about putting on airs or or pretending to be something you're not, just for the sake of making sure people think the best of you, because they're not, they're going to see right through it. People think the best of those people who are real and transparent and honest. Now, you have to have the competency. You know, this is all about character. You got to have the competency too. I can be as honest as I want, but if I have no idea how to program uh, you know, a software program or something, whatever the role I'm in, if I don't have any idea how to recruit people, let's talk about the roles that I've been in. If I had no idea how to go to spot talent or develop talent, then I probably have no business. I can have all the character in the in the world, but I also have to have the competency. I have to have the skill set. But but usually we can see and measure that skill set pretty quickly. The character is the more difficult part, as you as you started out saying. So, all right, let me slow down and stop rambling now on my done well.
SPEAKER_01:So, so I I love that you're going down the path of making sure that you you're competent in your job and and you know being more seasoned. When you think about how much that impacts integrity, especially though, it used to be uh for for you and I, I know it was for me, Todd. It used to be a day, fake it till you make it. Yeah, that was a saying, like until you discover it, just keep keep showing up and keep faking it. And but I also say there's this thing called fake it until you break it, because you may never get better because you're faking it and nobody knows how to help you because you you're not transparent. Yeah, how do we help people get out of that mindset of fake fake it till you make it? Um nobody has all the answers.
SPEAKER_02:I believe that the underlying uh intent of the phrase fake it till you make it is to be open. Look, I'm new in this role, I'm learning. Let me, in fact, let me give you a real example, Ron. When I was first put in the chief people officer role, now 21, 22 years ago, I've been out of it for about three years. Um, our CEO and our president at that time came to me. I was in, I worked in our innovation department. I worked in helping develop our work sessions and go out and deliver them. I had no background, and this maybe is something I shouldn't share, but I will. I had no background in HR. I had recruited uh in the medical industry, I'd recruited physicians before I ever joined Franklin Covey. So I had recruitment experience, but our recruiting department, it was called professional staffing, it was completely separate from HR. I didn't have an HR background, I didn't know anything about HR law or benefits or compensation or any of the traditional HR things. They came to me and said, Would you be interested in applying for the chief people officer role? And I had to say, Well, what's a chief people officer? And then and I was very open with them. And I said, Look, I I'm flattered that you would, and they didn't give me the job, but they asked me to apply. And I said, Well, I don't have an HR background at all. And they said, We know, and I say this with humility, they said, we know, but we have watched you over the years. You are really good with people. You have this, you have this sixth sense with people, and we think that could be very valuable. And I was flattered and honored, but I said, okay, but the job is HR. And so anyway, I applied, I studied and I applied for the job, and I was fortunate enough to be selected. But I let my team know, and this is where I say fake it till you make it. I let my team know, look, I'm not going to pretend to you that I understand compensation or how to put together, you know, that world or anything about benefits or anything about legal, you know, what are some of the technicalities in the legal leaves with employees and leaves? You need to know, I don't know any of that, but I'm going to work my tail off and I'm going to learn from you. And I've pulled you all together because you're an expert in compensation, you're an expert in in employment law, you're an expert in employee relations. And I pull this massive team, one massively intelligent team together. And when I say fake it till you make it, it's not about being something you're not or sh or pretending to say you have a skill when you don't have it. Fake it till you make it is to pay the price, to do the work, to get the reps in over and over again until you can get up to speed in the areas that you need to be up to speed in. That's that's how I would define the term.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, and and and I I love that you're sharing it because it shows leadership. You know, um leaders don't feel like they have to have all the answers and they're they're comfortable in what they know and don't know. I want to I want to shift a little bit for, you know, you think of the leaders, we hit trust, we hit vulnerability, we hit, you know, making sure that you make it safe for people to be able to show up as who they really, really are. How do you what have you noticed? You know, a lot of our leaders that listen to the show are struggling with having an effective leadership across five generations, maybe six in the workforce today. What have you noticed in your experience and being a chief people officer? Um, how do you what advice would you give leaders that are trying to manage and navigate that space? I mean, they're there it's drastically different from generation to generation.
SPEAKER_02:I just uh I just led a webinar uh two days ago on Generation Z and leading Generation Z because we we did, well, uh the Pew Research Company did a uh uh study on leaders who are leading all these different generations. And there were uh it wasn't 50%, but it was almost 50% of leaders were thinking of leaving their leadership role because they did not know how to lead Generation Z. Generation Z, just as one of the examples, they they came of age during the pandemic, during COVID, and they have uh, I wouldn't say a different set of rules. And and this is the point I'd like to make. When I look at the different generations, and we and and just recently, because it's top of mind, we talked about Generation Z, they're really uh they're really focused on flexibility, they're really focused on being a part of something that makes a difference in the world, social responsibility. They have a huge focus on that. They want to feel valued, and and some cynics will say, Oh, yeah, you got to give them a trophy every five minutes. No, no, no. They want to feel valued because they want to be a part of something that matters. They want to be recognized for the contributions they're making. And when I think of that list, Ron, I'm certainly not a generation zen. I think, well, those things are all pretty important to me, too. Now, sometimes we're stuck in our old paradigms as leaders if we are more seasoned as I am. And we think, well, no, when I was growing up, you you were at work at eight o'clock and you worked until five o'clock, and you wore a suit and you wore a tie, and you, you know, never thought of asking for time off more than, you know, whatever, and you had these rules. And so I would ask all of us as leaders, step back and say, are we okay with the fact that times have changed? And I get back to something I said a minute ago. What are the results we're after? Why do you care how somebody gets the results if they're getting stellar results? Before the pandemic, we had some people start to work virtually at Franklin Covey. And I had, and somebody on my team did just because of where they lived. And rather than they spend two hours a day commuting, they asked if they could work from home. Again, this is before the pandemic. Doesn't sound foreign now, but before the pandemic, that was like, what? You're gonna work from home? And this person, uh in fact, I'll share her first name because she's amazing, her name's Stephanie, and she had asked for that. And I did it. I said, you know what, let's try it. Let's see how it works out. This woman, she got the job, she she did more than three people could do in any day. And that didn't drop. In fact, it only increased. And I had another leader in our company say, hey, I've got people that are asking me, hey, Todd, let's, you know, so-and-so work from home. Could I do that? And this person who's a good friend and a really talented leader was completely against it. And I said, help me understand why you're against it. Well, I just I don't know what they're working on. I don't know. And I and so we got into discussion. I said, Well, how do you measure their success? How do you measure the results? Well, they're responsible for this and this and this and this. And I said, Okay, and if they weren't getting that done, wouldn't you know? Well, yeah, I guess I would. So why do you care? Why do you care if he gets the job done, you know, if they're not in a customer service thing that has to be during regular hours, if they get the job done between nine o'clock and one in the morning, if that's when they choose to do it, or if they're doing a load of wash during the day, why do you care? And and I've had many a leader say, ah, it's a really good point. I mean, if you pay for FaceTime, then yeah, I got to have them in my office so I can have them right under my thumb. But nobody's gonna say that. I pay for results. And so if they're getting the results, why do we care? And and and then going a little bit deeper with these different generations. If your job as a leader is to really get results with and through others, you ought to spend a good chunk of time finding out what's important to others. And while it may be different from what's important to you, be a leader, care about what's important to them and see if you can if you can do a better job of leading uh to those to those people, those folks.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. I love it. I mean, being I love that you say, hey, don't get stuck in the past. I mean, the world has changed and we continue to want to do better, but doing it the old way. I mean, and and to me, that those just don't align. I want to stay the same, but I want to be different.
SPEAKER_02:I remember on a on a years and years ago, I was a teller when I was going to school. I was a teller at a bank. When I finally got the job, they finally called me back. And I was a teller at the drive-up window at a bank. And I remember taking the bus to work. And a lady that lived in our neighborhood, her name was Alice Anderson. She's passed away now, and she was from England. And I had on Levi's, and I think I may not have had socks on. I think I had on Docker shoes, but it was trendy to not wear socks at that time. And and I had on Levi's and I'm sure a decent shirt. And I got on the I got on the bus with Mrs. Anderson, and she, very proper lady, and she said, Well, God, it's good to see you. Where are you going? I said, I'm going to work. And she said, like that. And I said, Well, yeah. And she goes, What do you do? And I said, I'm a teller in a bank. She goes, We would never have dressed like that if we worked in a bank. And and she was kind, but it was just a reminder to me of, well, Alice, I'm sorry. Well, I'm sure I didn't call her Alice, but Mrs. Anderson, the times have changed and this is perfectly acceptable at work. And so having an open mindset. Now, it doesn't mean throw judgment out the window. Clearly, if someone, regardless of the generation they're in, is doing something that's hurting the work or hurting the culture, then of course you got to bring it to their attention. But most of the things I'm finding that leaders get concerned with are things that are there's are stuck in their mind from an old paradigm or an old way of doing things. So anyway, that's uh fun memory I had forgot about Mrs. Anderson.
SPEAKER_01:Also, and it came back right at a long time because that's kind of where you are now, is it has changed and what's acceptable and what's going forward to being okay with the to new? And that doesn't mean everything goes out, but that doesn't mean everything we have is still relevant today. And so, how do you make those adjustments too? What do you leave as a thing of time force for all the the chief people officers or human resource directors or people that are leading teams? Are there are there three things that come to mind? It doesn't have to be three, whatever the number is for you. Are there things that you would leave our audience with to help them be more successful um in all the challenges that we're facing in the workforce today?
SPEAKER_02:Uh yes. Uh and I don't know if it'll be three or five or two, but yes, yes. The first thing we've kind of been talking about this this last topic is and and the phrase I use is wear glasses that work. Are you seeing things as they really are, or as you are you seeing things as you've convinced yourself they are because that's how you've seen something for so long? So the first thing would be to be willing every day to step back and and and say, and I probably have a visual here, yep, my reading glasses. Make sure that these glasses are still accurate. Am I seeing things, am I seeing people and situations as they really are? Or would it be a benefit to me to step back and say, wait a minute, that that situation has changed. I gotta take, I gotta have a different paradigm about this situation. So that would be that would be the first thing. The second thing would be I would I'll bring it from the seven habits of highly effective people. Habit number five is to seek first to understand and then to be understood. Yes. So take time to listen with the intent to understand, not with the intent to reply. I mean, if I ask your listeners, you know, think about how many times have you been talking to someone, listening to someone, and you're nodding and you're making eye contact, you're not interrupting, but your mind is thinking about your response. You're already formulating your response. We all do it. And we do it because we're, you know, we we want it, we're solvers, we're fixers, but the best leaders listen with the intent to understand. They shut off that noise. There'll be a there'll be a time to respond in a few minutes, but truly shut off that noise and listen with the with the intent of understanding. So that would be this the second thing. First, to check your paradigms, make sure you're wearing glasses that work. The second would be to listen with the intent to understand, not to reply. And then the last would be something I've already mentioned mentioned, and that would be start with humility. Start with humility. Recognize I'm in the leadership role, and as in the leadership role, my most important role is to develop others, to help others reach their full potential and have the human have the humility, have the humility to step back and say, what do you think? What would you think would be the best way to solve this? I mean, I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear what you really think and have that humility to really develop others.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Todd, Todd, phenomenal. I mean, lots of information. Um, I I know you mentioned earlier that that you do have a book. Is there anything that you want to share with the audience, you know, that's following you? You know, so if there's anything, a product or a service that you think you should share, and then your contact information.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you for asking. And I'm I'm I'm not here to plug a book, but you're very kind. I've yeah, I I wrote uh I wrote uh get better, the 15 proven practices to build effective relationships at work, which is continues to be a pretty popular book for anyone, whether you're in a leadership role or not, because relationships matter. People matter, as you know, as you tout. Um, I also was honored to co-author another book with with uh Victoria Ruth Olson and Scott Miller. We're three authors on a Wall Street Journal bestseller called Everyone Deserves a Great Manager. And so that's a that's uh another book that I've had the the great honor of of co-authoring. But I would tell you that most of my experience in in the nearly 30 years that I've been with Franklin Covey comes from the principles taught in our foundational piece of work, and that is the seven habits of highly effective people. And it it is, if anyone has ever read that or experienced a work session or listened to audio, it is and continues to be life-changing, not because um you know it was written 35 years ago, but it's based on principles, principles of effectiveness. So the application certainly changes, but principles never change. So I would encourage everyone to dive into the seven habits of highly effective people. We do have, we updated the work session. It's a two-day work session that we do with leaders and individual contributors around the world. Uh, and and we do update that. We just launched our newest update a year ago. And in fact, I'm off to teach that as soon as we finish here. And I'm excited about that or facilitate that, I should say, um, that as soon as we finish here. But I would I would ask your listeners to check that out. They can reach us at just our our web address is simple. It's franklincovey, c o v e y dot com. And once you're at that website, you can find anything that you want, including me.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I I love it. I love it. And you've been very, very kind and generous in your time today and shared a lot of great stuff for our audience. You know, the the question, uh, two questions I want to wrap up with for you. Um, you shared um the book, you know, Highly Effective Leaders, which is phenomenal. If you don't have that book, it should be every leader should have that book in their webcam. What's one piece of advice that was shared with you that still is super important for you being who you are today? What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given as a leader?
SPEAKER_02:Wow, I've been given so much good advice. Um let me, I'm, I'm, I'm uh thinking through several things right now, but I would if I were to, at least in the top three, the best to advise is that it would go back to what we started with. Everyone matters. Everyone, everyone, and and I try and remember that when I'm sitting in front of someone who may be interviewing for a job, or when I'm coaching someone who is transitioning their career, to see them as a whole person. To to I and I think of them as my brother or sister or son or daughter, or someone I care deeply about, and think, and and even someone who's really off-putting, or someone who I have nothing in common with. I I I I try and remember, and and this was my father, quite frankly, that instilled this in me. People matter. Everybody's got something to contribute. Everybody, everybody matters.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I love it. I'm glad that I asked that question. You came back with it because it's a tag line. So I did for everybody that's listening, you know, he's right in the line. Enough scripted questions, it's just, you know, uh, and he has it on his desk, he has it on his business card holding. So for all our leaders that are listening, inclusion, people matter, inclusion, people matter, yes, yes, yes. And I for everyone that's listening, thank you all for for staying with us. Thank you for joining us on the podcast of Unpacked. We never know where we're gonna go, but we have phenomenal guests that are pretty transparent, that share and give you stuff that you can use. So hopefully you take away some great notes. Um, be humble. And remember, everybody matters every day, all the time, every person. Um, thank y'all for joining us. And until next time, uh Todd and I will sign off and tell you thank you for for uh staying with us on Unpack with Ron Harvey. Y'all have a great day. Thank you, Ron.
SPEAKER_00:Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpack Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron Unpacks Sound Advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are for the people you serve. Because people always matter.
