Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
From Shakespeare to C-Suite: The Humanities Approach to Leadership
Charles Spinoza shares his journey from Shakespearean professor to leadership consultant, exploring how leaders can transform their organizations into moral masterpieces that reflect their deepest values and vision.
• Former humanities professor turned leadership consultant with 27 years of experience
• Author of "Leadership as Masterpiece Creation" focusing on morally distinctive leadership
• Contrarian view that leadership has evolved beyond humility to moral artistry
• Leaders have strong moral intuitions about treatment of customers, employees, suppliers, and owners
• Business leaders are today's moral artists more than political leaders
• Three key questions: What always goes wrong? What would you love instead? What moral risks must you take?
• Creating a masterpiece requires courage to make difficult decisions that challenge industry norms
• Taking moral risks unites multi-generational workforces around a meaningful purpose
• Book gives leaders permission to create organizations that embody their authentic moral vision
Find Charles Spinoza on LinkedIn or at stratumcom. His book "Leadership as Masterpiece Creation" is available on Amazon.
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host leadership consultant, ron Harvey of GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference. So now to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:Good morning. This is Ron Harvey, the vice president, chief operator of GlobalCore, and we're a leadership development firm. We do a lot of executive coaching, team building. Our goal really is to help leaders be better connected to their workforce at the end of the day and there are multiple ways to do that. But today is really not about what we do as a company. You'll be able to find us on LinkedIn and our website. Today is really about our guests and what they bring to the table and unpack with Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:So we're super excited to have another guest that is going to come before you, has great book that's out doing great work in the space that he's doing it. But I want to be able to allow Charles to come on and he's going to. I'm ahead of the microphone and always do it. Every guest. Let them introduce themselves. How would they desire to? Nobody knows them better than they know themselves, but always give them the microphone and say, hey, however, you want to do it. So, charles, I'm going to move out of your way and hand you the microphone.
Speaker 3:Thank you, ron, and greetings to everybody who's listening. I'm honored to be here. So I'm Charles Spinoza. I am also someone who does leadership coaching. I'm a management consultant. I've been that for about 27, 28 years. I work in leadership development, I work in organizational culture change and I help people develop new customer propositions, and for me they're all related. If you're going to change your culture, you need to be a very strong leader, and one of the reasons to change your culture is to have a really cool proposition for your customers. So, as I said, I've done that for about 27 years small companies, large companies, europe, uk, canada, once in China, latin America.
Speaker 3:I think the thing that makes me distinctive among consultants is that my background is not the traditional business school background or economics background or social science background. Social science background. I used to be a professor in the humanities. I was a Shakespearean for a while. I taught Shakespeare at the Miami University in Ohio and then I went on, published a lot in academic philosophy and my final teaching position was at UC Berkeley in the philosophy department there, and that's what I bring to consulting and that's what my new book is about.
Speaker 3:My new book is about leadership as masterpiece creation. That's how to turn your organization into a masterpiece, how to turn your leadership style into a masterpiece. And if you think about masterpiece, that comes out of the humanities and what I've been doing, what I realized I was doing mostly the last eight years of my consulting. It took me a long time. I was always drawing on the humanities. I helped leaders find their defining passions, but I didn't realize that helping them to get their defining passions would help them also create organizations that were masterpieces, that were admired by people and morally distinctive. And that's the thing I've come to realize that when a leader creates a masterpiece, it's actually morally distinctive, not just commercially distinctive.
Speaker 2:Wow, I probably like the audience there enjoying it. You know hearing the background and the stories and how you leaned into you know how you got to where you are today, which you know you're several years ahead of me in the business, and so I'm excited to listen and learn and how you've made that shift for you. You've watched leadership evolve over the years. What are some of the things that stand out the most for how leadership has evolved over the years? You know you look back over your time in the space.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of a contrarian on leadership. Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of a contrarian on leadership. What's happened in leadership was we went from a period of what we considered strong masculine, patriarchal leaders were highly directive in what they did and had a strong sense of what they were about and just demanded that other people follow it or get out of the way. That evolved into what was called transformational leadership. There's a thinker, nick Burns, who was behind that, and the idea was that doesn't work so well. What we have to do is we have to make sure at least the members of our leadership team are successful in their own rights. And so you became much more of a coach as a leader.
Speaker 3:The other thing that was popular at that time was called servant leadership, and then you were also a coach, but servant leadership interestingly, you wouldn't get it from the name. You were also a visionary. You gave people a vision and you served them as a vision. Now what's happened is leadership has become, as it's moved in that direction, it's required more and more quote humility, and Jim Collins wrote a book from good to great I think it is now 10 years ago might be longer ago where the top top quality of a leader was humility, and I have an interesting story about a leader who tried to do that. It works in the US. It doesn't work so much if you're in a third world country and leading a company there.
Speaker 3:I'll tell it real quickly. Lorenzo Zambrano, the CEO of Cemex, read Jim Collins' book, said this is great, I'm going to be humble. I'm going to go talk to the financial analysts. And he was growing his small company in Mexico to what became the third largest cement company in the world. He was taking it global. And when they asked him what kind of genius he had, he said well, it's not really my genius, it's the genius of my senior team. His stock price fell by 50%.
Speaker 3:Humility doesn't play so well as Jim Collins would make it seem, but this led to I'm being very academic here, I'm going to bring it to a close two things that, for me, are knives in the back of humility. Think of leaders as Julius Caesar, and it's one. Two. One is that leadership is distributed throughout the organization. Don't look for the senior leader as the one who's setting the course. Don't look to the senior leader as direct. Realize that it's distributed all throughout the organization. It's not even just the top team, it's not even the next team down. Everybody gets to be a leader and that is the final thing.
Speaker 3:What is leadership? Leadership is influence. Let me say how I stand against that. Would you mind? I don't mind. Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 3:All of this view of leadership looks at leaders as basically operational and getting people to maintain operations. What you add to that is a purpose that people care about, particularly that your employees care about, but generally it's from the menu of typical purposes out there. We're going to take care of the environment, we're going to be sustainable, whatever. I think leadership is deeply, deeply moral, and by that I mean virtually every leader I have run into not everyone, but virtually everyone I've run into has a sense of what's right for customers, has a sense of what is right for suppliers, has a sense of what is right for employees, has a sense of what is right for owners. They'll have some other senses of what is right, but those four they believe in strongly. Of course they go to consultants like me and business schools and they get told here are the recipes. And venture capitalists they're full of recipes too. Here are the recipes for how to make your business successful. And they feel vexed and by and large, they start following the recipes because people believe in those recipes. But behind their back and on the sides they're trying to do what they think is right for employees and it might not be that you find out what the employee wants and you try to help the employee achieve what the employee wants. It might be what's right for employees is to stretch them, to stretch them near their breaking points so that they can feel extraordinarily proud of their lives. You might believe that, or and that's sort of an Amazon view, or you might have a Google view Let them explore, take 20% of their time, follow their heart in a way, so they invent something really cool. That's another way of dealing with employees. Those are two different visions and they're two different moral visions. The good life that you're offered at Amazon the good life you're offered at Google they're very different good lives. The way you treat each other at Amazon or Google, they're very different. And my view is business leaders do have a sense, the same for employees, for customers, for so forth.
Speaker 3:You see it all the time. Walk down the street in your town. You'll see different stores. In my neighborhood there are two hardware stores. One you walk into you hear classic jazz music. You smell actually I think it's soaps, I'm not sure, I'm not really good and the minute, just 30 seconds after you walk in, there's somebody saying how can I help you? What can I do? The prices are a little high. The service is great. The other one you walk into, you're sawdust on the floor. You have the faint smell of three-in-one oil. I hope you have people that can remember what that's like. Just think like the oil they put on tools in the old days and you might see somebody stocking shelves and somebody else at the cash register. Nobody asks you if you want to help. It's a sort of do-it-yourself place. That's two different visions on what's right for treating customers, what's right for treating employees, what a hardware store should be like.
Speaker 3:I think we can admire both. We embrace one or the other, depending on our tastes. But those are moral visions. We see it at the bottom, we see it at the top. Jeff Bezos has a different moral vision from, say, anita Roddick or Ray Dalio. For the shapers they do it. For the people at the bottom they do it. My whole goal was to bring that to everybody, from between the small business to the large shaping businesses. They have a moral vision about what is right and enable business leaders to bring out their moral vision. I don't always agree exactly. Well, usually I admire moral visions. I don't do ones that I totally oppose. But I couldn't embrace many of the moral visions that I help leaders bring out, and that's what I do, and I'll just end with this. The one question I begin when I ask leaders, when I start working with leaders, is what always goes wrong with your company, what always goes wrong in your industry? Answer either one of those. I find leaders can, and then we're off to creating a masterpiece. Well, awesome.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, phenomenal. I'm glad that you're unpacking it, because that's really what the whole podcast is about. So when you think about it, charles, I love that you're talking about the moral vision. How do people develop that? I mean because you know you think of morals and where they come from and you look at the values of their family or their history or where they live, that in the community and it can be a geographic. How do you come to this idea of the moral vision?
Speaker 3:Well, for me, first of all a lot of people morality means just how we treat each other justly. Yes, it's strictly that. Yeah, I follow this is a bit of me as a philosopher. I follow Bernard Williams, the famous British philosopher, who said that's Sort of nonsense. A moral vision just as we treat each other justly is insufficient. Any moral life has to include how you lead a good life. Now, technically, in philosophy, a lot of people call good life ethics and how you treat each other morality. Bernard Williams and Charles Spinoza, as his followers, say moral and vision includes how you treat each other Right and how, inside that, you can lead a good life. You can have a perfectly run prison where everybody's treating each other in a fair way, but there are no good lives there. I want a good life, so that's the first view. Now my sense is I can't say this for everybody, but the leaders I've dealt with most of them as they go through the management ranks, they find themselves in certain fights. I want to be stretching my employees more. I want to be solving this problem by working more with the customers, more in partnership with the customers. I want to treat our loyal customers better than our newer customers. I want to reward them for loyalty somehow, and they'd have that as an intuition. They don't have that as a binding principle. But then they're told the way the marketplace works is make great new offers to new customers. Leave your loyal customers alone. They'll keep producing money so that you can have sustainable and predictable profits. And likewise, don't go to.
Speaker 3:In our industry we try to have beautiful big engineering solutions. We don't try to have small solutions by working with customers and so on and so forth. One of the most recent was somebody who in management a video game company and I have to keep this as confidential as I can had said you know, we could create a video game that both genders would like. Men and women would like, young men and women, teenage men would like. It's going to be harder, but wouldn't that be cool? Cool, well, it might be very cool, but it's much harder. And you bring together people and suddenly you're creating a video game for macho young males that shoot them up video game and you're good at it, you've got talents and you do that and you make money.
Speaker 3:And so what happens is for people who become leaders. They start out as successful managers and they push aside concerns that they had earlier in their career. They push aside, and they become very good at pushing aside. Or they begin we can have a little bit. We'll put in better characters in our video game so it might have more appeal here, or we'll start having customers collect some of the runoff water from the roof so we don't have to build so many underground plants. And we'll do a little bit here, a little bit there, and that's the brilliance of management.
Speaker 3:The brilliance of management is to take a big problem and find workaround solutions to get beyond it fast. And as managers they've done a lot of this and as they move up, by the time I get to see them, they have a lot of this baggage where they're saying I wish I could do it this way, or wouldn't it be cool if I could do it this way? Now, what I do, the first thing I do is I say let's take it out of the language of wouldn't it be cool or wouldn't it be nice, or it's too bad. We can't ever and say that is your view of what's the right thing to do, and nine times out of 10, they said yeah, yeah, that would be the right thing to do, charles, but obviously I can't do it, or obviously everybody would be against me if I did it, or the CFO would be jumping down my throat if I tried to do that, because I wouldn't have as profits that are as predictable and so forth. But they're developing it as they develop, as managers, things that they would like to do that they talk themselves out of. That's where they get it and what's it based on. It's based on how they interact with people in their lives.
Speaker 3:One of the big ones is in many businesses it's just a matter of habit that you go out and try to create a win-lose contract with people, but in our lives that's not how we do it. It might be the traditions of the business say, do that particularly, say, if you're in the construction industry, in your lives you have things that pull you apart in other ways. You didn't try to create a win-lose contract with your wife, I bet, or your spouse, I bet. Maybe you did, but most people did not and you have. Our lives are rich, our lives go in various ways and it's out of those responses that we find that in our business life there are things that we are doing because they're efficient, because they're advised by Harvard or another consultant that we just do. They're a simple pattern, that simplicity is a big thing and we're drawn against our instincts.
Speaker 2:Wow, Charles have you noticed, for with many generations in the workforce, it's more difficult to create that masterpiece as a leader with work with so many I mean. So there's a lot of perspectives, different generations and all the variables how difficult is it to hone in and be good at this masterpiece of leadership around the work that you're doing?
Speaker 3:I'd be lying if I said it was easy. In fact it's rewarding. Yeah, okay, that's the key. It's rewarding. It's not easy.
Speaker 3:Any business leader who says to me, Charles, why are you telling me I should create a masterpiece? Isn't it hard enough for me to create a profitable business that supplies goods to customers, that takes care of their needs, and do it year after year after year, why should I create a masterpiece? And to that person and I have run into those people I'd say you're right, it is hard. I'm not telling you you have to create a masterpiece. I'm saying that if you believe there's something that you are doing that's not morally right, that's not the best thing to do, let's explore and see if you can create a masterpiece on that. If you don't have that feeling, don't. It is hard enough to create a good, profitable business.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to take you through the three questions I take people through. This will give you a sense of what's hard. The first is what always goes wrong in this business or in this industry. Surprisingly, virtually every leader I run into can answer that we don't have enough financial transparency, we don't take care of our loyal customers, we're selling stuff that is sort of miraculous and not quite fully honest to people, and so forth. You run into all sorts of answers and people come up with that. And then the next question, which is a harder question to answer and I promise you it's harder. I think with your background, Ron, you'll see it's harder. Your listeners might not believe me, but it is harder than the next one what would you love to do instead?
Speaker 3:Now for leaders who have been senior managers they're brilliant at finding workarounds, at not having to address the central thing, so that stymies them. What would I love? And that's the hard one. But you could almost always get the answer from people. Now, when they're with their senior teams, their senior teams, as soon as they say what they would love, there'll be a bunch of naysayers that's impossible, Can't do it, Can't do it. So you have to work with senior teams. Now, do not say, do not say no, I was working with somebody in health care. What I would love is financial transparency so the patient knows exactly what he's paying for to whom, and so forth, and it can actually negotiate it. And you should have seen his senior team. Oh, that's impossible for this reason. It's impossible for that reason. But I have to say we have a very smart senior team. They gave very compelling reasons and the leader sort of being backed off into the corner. I knew it was impossible. How did I let Charles Spinoza get me into this situation where I'm saying what I thought? So I said stop all of that. What would be the benefit if you did it?
Speaker 3:No-transcript the common sense of your industry. It's going to go against the common sense of members of your senior team and people aren't going to really believe you're serious. The first thing most people believe is oh, he's come up with some brilliant public relations. Say we're doing this, we'll go 25% of the way there. That's more virtuous than anybody else on the planet. What more could anybody ask? And figuring out those moral risks and figuring out the order you're going to take them in that's really where I earn my money. That's the difficult thing.
Speaker 3:One company we worked with I can talk about it, it's in the book was Impellum. It's a recruitment company. It was based in the UK. It's now global. Julia Robertson ran it and the recruitment industry used to be a sort of cutthroat industry. Get people in seats in offices, pull them out, get them in and out. The whole idea was a flexible workforce in and out. The whole idea was a flexible workforce. Now, flexible workforce is a good thing. The economy is changing all the time. You want to provide your customers good service, you need to flex. But the cutthroat ways in which you would get people into chairs and out of chairs, that was a bit heartbreaking. Julia Robertson wanted to change that, and so the first thing.
Speaker 3:So we set out the three moral risks that she was going to have to take. She was going to have to get people in her own organization making honest, to goodness promises to each other. In that industry, the whole idea of making a promise was so you could betray somebody and make an extra dollar. It was all. Promises were all win, lose, and even inside the company. So she insisted on promises for revenue, promises for profit, and the idea was not that you always kept your promise, but if you were failing as soon as you noticed you might not be able to keep it.
Speaker 3:You went and spoke to her and renegotiated and what happens? Classically, one of her most talented persons didn't take her seriously, missed his promise by a huge amount and didn't renegotiate her. And what'd she have to do If she was going to take the stand that this is the new way we're going to behave in this industry, even though it doesn't make sense to you. She had to fire that person and it was considered a brutal firing and it was considered didn't make any sense. The guy was normally a high performer. Just because he missed a promise Everybody misses promises we don't take promises seriously, and now they were going to take promises seriously at Impellum and it is a mind shift. In an industry like that, it's a huge mind shift. You think about the construction industry people trying to do that now. It's a huge mind shift. How does the construction industry work? Well, we make a promise to the provider and then we're going to do change orders and we'll really make our money on all the change orders.
Speaker 3:Honor the employees that she brought to them and that is, give them opportunities for some education, give them some sort of other opportunity like that. And that meant ultimately, she was going to have to stop serving some people Again. She had to fire two or three people in a big, big way to show that, and her third was over great profits. I will go into that. I mean, basically, one of the things you could do is if you didn't tell people that they could get holiday pay. They wouldn't ask for it and you didn't have to pay them, and then a lot of money was being made that way. That's one example. There were a lot of examples like that. She eliminated that. But it all required hard things that you have to do, hard personal things that you have to do to get people to take that vision.
Speaker 3:Clearly, Julia Robertson is not a household name. Think Anita Roddick who founded the Body Shop. She succeeded in creating this little boutique body shop. Nobody in the beauty business took her seriously. She went to her family and said we've got to grow this business. We've got to be taken seriously. Her husband was also her CFO said no, let's grow organically, we're not going to borrow any more money. What'd she do? She believed so much in growth of that business. When he went out of town she sold half the shares of the company to get the money for growth. He came back to town it's sort of a famous story. He forgave her and the rest is history. The body shop in its heyday had more international stores than any other English business.
Speaker 3:People have to make those kinds of sacrifices to create masterpieces, for people to take this new way of doing business seriously. So you're right, it's not easy, but it is enormously rewarding and fulfilling. You can look at your business and see your view of the world, your view of what you care about, realized there, and other people will be admiring it and recognizing it and you will, in fact, have changed the world, which is what people who become leaders want to do. Anyway, my view is you become a leader because, deep down, deep, you want your moral vision realized in the world, and so I say today's business leaders are our moral artists today, more than our political leaders, who are caught up in these really ugly fights all the time. The business leaders can go out and create businesses and create organizations that have this kind of moral pull.
Speaker 3:And I have avoided the answer to your question, so I apologize. The answer to your question is when you do this, when you take a moral risk like that, you are able to draw in those from multiple generations around you. That was the answer to your question. Your question was how can you create a masterpiece when you've got Gen Zers, Gen Xers and all of these other? That's it. There's something about taking a moral risk which is shocking, that wakes people up and says either I'm in or I'm out, and if I'm in, I'm in.
Speaker 2:No, I mean you've unpacked a lot and so thank you for coming back around to the question, but I love that you walked us through.
Speaker 2:You know what does it look like and on the show. I love to unpack because sometimes we make it look easy and so the answer would have been easy for you to share, but the story was valuable. So I love you walking through the story and I tell people all the time you can read the book, but having to opt on and walking through the process of what you're thinking that we may not pick up from the book, so I love that you walk through that, that story to help us really get it. Thank you, ron. So when you think about you know people that are going to you know and I'll actually know where they find your book in the contact information. When you think about leaders that are in that position, they say, hey, I'm actually interested in the book. What is the thing that's going to be most helpful for them when they're thinking of purchasing the book? What do you hope they walk away with or the value that you're going to add by them purchasing the book?
Speaker 3:I've had three leaders who purchased the book and read the book and they said something that delighted me, that I had tried. Well, I don't know. It's one of those things you do stuff behind your back that you really care about and you don't realize. Three of them said let me give you the honest answer. I thought the whole chapter on taking moral risks and how you do that and what it's like was going to be mind blowing. Everybody would love it and they'd write me and say wow, charles, this is such moral subtlety. I love the fact that you were able to lay it out with such simplicity and now I feel like I understand what I'm doing morally on this planet better than ever before. You might say Charles Spinoza has a bit of a Jesus complex or something, but that was my hope, ron. That was honest to goodness, my hope, I confess.
Speaker 3:The three leaders who said they read the book and really got something from it they all said the same thing Charles, your book gives me permission to do what I really wanted to do.
Speaker 3:Your book said it's all right to stop trying to follow all the recipes and to try to create the moral organization, the organization that is moral in my light. That's okay and so, look, that is a good thing too, and that is the intuition which drove the book. But I thought they would fall in love with some of the particular steps along the way there. I mean, there's all sorts of interesting stuff. There's how to build trust, there's how to manage moods, there's how to listen for difference. There's the big stuff how to seek truth, how to take a moral risk, how to calculate when to take your moralists and how to examine yourself at the end of every day to see if your masterpiece is working for people. I had one person who said I like that thing of examining yourself at the end of every day. That was pretty. I had one person that said that that's, I think, chapter nine towards the end of the book.
Speaker 3:You gave me permission to go out and try to create a masterpiece, Charles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean thank you for the transparency and the vulnerability here in this conversation, like here's what I was hoping, because oftentimes, as leaders, what you're you're set off to do people pick up something else and you meet them where they are and so if you gave them permission to really turn into this moral organization and steps throughout there and I think that's important for all leaders as we do things what we intended it to be may land different, but it worked for what they need and that becomes their masterpiece.
Speaker 3:I should underline that. Look, leaders get to be leaders because they have got all sorts of talents. The woman who had the strongest response to my book she created a masterpiece. She didn't exactly do it the way I set out in the book as the way to do it. It's a beautiful masterpiece. I can't help but admire it and I'm sure she was inspired by some bits and pieces along the way, other than just go create a masterpiece. But yeah, I mean, leaders will. They'll develop, and I don't want my book to be a recipe. And that's what's happened. They're sort of playing off it. It's like they're jazz musicians. This is the song that was originally written, but you know, what John Coltrane does to my favorite things is way beyond anything anybody, I think, could have imagined. And that's what they're doing.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome. So, charles, as we wrap up, where do they find your book at? And then, what's the best way to get in touch with you If people want to know two things bring you back on another podcast, or want to leverage your services. You know you're in leadership and development If everyone is watching. I collaborate with everyone that does what I do, because there are people that I learn a lot from that do exactly so. I don't compete against the people that I look for the best at it and create relationships, so don't be afraid of someone that's doing exactly what you do and they're doing it better. Allow them to help you and you help them. How do we find you?
Speaker 3:Okay, so the simplest way to find me is through LinkedIn, and I think it's LinkedIn hashes in Charles Spinoza, but Charles Spinoza LinkedIn should get you to me. It's Charles Spinoza PhD. I have to distinguish myself from others, so LinkedIn For the book. The simplest place to go is Amazon. The title is Leadership as Masterpiece Creation. It will come up very easily. I do most of my consulting now through Stratum, the Stratum group, stratumcom, s-t-r-a-t-a-mcom. But if you go to LinkedIn, you'll find the other companies that I work through Vision Consulting and so forth as well, and I'm happy to do consulting. As I say, I'm retired now. I only do consulting four days a week and I do writing and research three days a week.
Speaker 2:Wow, Love it, love it. He's retired and still enjoying it. So thank you so much for coming on Unpacked with Ron Harvey. I mean, it's been phenomenal to listen and learn and I've definitely become a fan of picking up the book because you know, based on the information you've shared and I did the quick sample read of it is I always want to have something better to offer to the people that I serve. So I'm a student constantly of learning what else is out there, what else is available to help me add the most value, or our partners. So thank you so much and for all of you that followed along and hung in with Charles and I, hopefully we added some value to you and gave you something that you can actually use to go out there and ensure that you create your own masterpiece.
Speaker 2:Pick up the book and figure out. I love that you talk about morals, because I think we're at a time now where we got to get back to what's the moral fiber of who we are and how we show. Are we creating the corporations? Can you give us the four areas? I think you gave four areas before we wrap up, charles, I'd love for you to do that again. You said right, for I mean, what's right for the customer? What's right? What were those categories again?
Speaker 3:What do you believe is right for the customer? What's the right way to treat our customer, and that's all segments of customers. What's the right way to treat employees? That's one where leaders have very strong views.
Speaker 2:What's the right way to treat suppliers? What's the right way to treat owners? Wow, and those are all stakeholders. I love that you said that, because you got to look at all those. So, again, thank y'all for joining us. You can catch us on any podcast. We release the podcast every single Monday with a different leader from around the country, with all different backgrounds. We hope that we continue to give you something that makes you more effective as a leader. Go out and make an impact. Make a difference for your organization and the places that you live, work and go to school. Thank you all for joining us and until next time, charles and I will sign off, until you have a wonderful day.
Speaker 1:Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron unpacks sound advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are, for the people you serve, because people always matter.
