Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
Leading Through Dysfunction: Insights from Mother-Daughter Consultants
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Turning Point Leadership Podcast with your host, ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron's delighted you joined us and excited to discuss and help you navigate your journey towards becoming an effective leader. During this podcast, ron will share his core belief that effective leadership is one of the key drivers towards change. So together let's grow as leaders. Here's Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:Good morning. This is Ron Harvey. I'm the vice president and the chief operating officer for Global Core Strategies and Consulting, and we're based out of Columbia, South Carolina. We run a leadership development firm, and I say we my wife and I started the company For all of you that's been following us for a while and you know that we do one thing really, really well and that's helping leaders be better connected to their workforce.
Speaker 2:So we spend all of our time and there are multiple ways to do that, but we pause every single week and we release a podcast, and today I'm super excited I've never had this dynamic on the podcast before to have a mother and daughter trio that's doing the work that we do in different locations. So I'm super excited that we get to cooperate and collaborate about what we're doing in the challenges. I understand it as husband and wife, but I don't have my son in the business or my daughter in the business, so they'll share some things from a women's perspective and from a family dynamic duo that's doing great work. So I'm going to pause, hand the microphone to them and let them introduce themselves, and then we'll get started. So let me hand it over to you and, if you want to kick us off. That'd be great.
Speaker 3:Sure, I'll kick us off. I'm Dr Andrea Natsaris and I'm located in Toronto, canada, and the focus of my work has always been, as it has been, within Caliber Leadership Systems, the business that Heather and I founded together on helping leaders and individuals achieve their potential through systems, through understanding themselves, the person who is leading and interacting with leaders.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:Heather and I am Heather Duran at Saris Hilliard and I am based outside of Vancouver, british Columbia, in Canada as well, and my focus in the work that Anne and I do together, we come at it a little bit differently.
Speaker 4:I have a lot more of an organizational lens where I go in and work with the organizations around their talent management systems, their leadership practices, their organizational structures and design, and Anne and I in combination do the work that's really about. How do we help leaders who are running organizations that have sort of stalled out, as we say, in adolescence, to really be able to understand what they need to do as leaders behaviorally, but also the systems, the structures and the practices that allow the organizations to continue to mature and grow to scale. So that's some of the complexities, and I can never finish up a conversation about what we do without saying we do have a little bit of a specialty in dysfunction. So any of you in the audience that have experienced leadership dysfunction in your organizations, that is one of the places that we love to do work with our clients around.
Speaker 2:You hit it head on. We're going to talk about it, and most people that listen to our podcast know that it's called Unpacked for a reason. We just unpack whatever shows up. So we got this little carry-on suitcase and we begin to unpack it in real time with you. So thank you first of all for sharing who you are and for coming on the podcast, but for our guests, I mean, let's dive into it, like right now. Today, there seems to be a lot of dysfunction in organizations when it comes to leadership. What are you noticing as some of the key things that you're watching? Because organizations are struggling in this space and that's why we're in business. What are some of the things you're seeing show up in leadership that's challenging the sustainability of organizations?
Speaker 3:So, from my perspective and I'll come at it from as you've heard it's a little bit of a different way that Heather comes at it, because what we do is we both analyze systems that aren't supporting leadership success, but we also look at how leaders behave, how they conceptualize their role and what they think is expected of them, and unfortunately and you probably experience this as well that many, many leaders don't get trained, and so they show up believing that they should be a good leader, and in today's environment, being a good leader means letting people do whatever they feel entitled to be doing in the workplace, which means that they can't really manage their performance in a way that gains alignment or gets them to the results that they want to achieve. So permissiveness and entitleness are two really key issues that are causing a lot of grief, a lot of lost productivity in organizations, and that they really need to be addressed, because it, in turn, leads to a lack of accountability.
Speaker 2:So, Heather, I mean you're coming from a different perspective what do you notice when it comes to this turbulence, dysfunction within organizations?
Speaker 4:I think what we have, too, is where the role of the leader has evolved but clarity hasn't come along with that evolution of the role of the leader has evolved, but clarity hasn't come along with that evolution of the role of the leader. And so everybody has these ideas and these expectations. You know you can't be this and you can't do this and you can't say that. But the offsetting piece of it which says but this is what you need to be doing and this is how you need to be effective in directing and governing, and accountability, all of those pieces that we really know are fundamental in our organizational environment. And then we add to that the complexity, where there is a lot more of a need for collaboration and for joint work and to be working not necessarily in silos, and where we see that dysfunction is where the leaders haven't developed out kind of the skills or, what I say, the processes. Right, they don't have the processes, so they keep going at it, they keep trying, they're doing their best. Sometimes they feel super powerless. Well, it's, you know, it's that person or it's this and I can't do anything about it. And there is just this gap, when we look at it organizationally, where there hasn't been enough definition put in as to how we're really going to make things work in a functional way.
Speaker 4:And one of the things we say to all of our clients look, dysfunction is normal.
Speaker 4:Like when we bring humans together, dysfunction is a reality or a byproduct, because where there's the opportunity for function, there's the opportunity for dysfunction, and so they sort of avoid the conversation about hey, this is really dysfunctional, this isn't working for us, what do we want to do about it?
Speaker 4:Instead, sort of there's working around it or this ignoring it, and then that just breeds more dysfunction, and it also breeds this personalization of it, where we start to make it about the person as opposed to what we're doing collectively as a leadership group. So, that being said, when we go into organizations that are struggling with this, one of the things we often find them saying is well, there's nothing I can do about it, and that is absolutely the wrong perspective. We can resolve dysfunction in organizations. There is an approach to take to it, and so if you're out there feeling like, well, this happens in my organization, but what am I going to be able to do, we've had clients who aren't even at the executive level bring us in because they know it's dysfunctional and they want to see it change, and so there's lots of opportunities for leaders. But starting to feel powerful as a leader is an important first step in that process.
Speaker 2:I love that we started there because you know, when I look at your website and I look at your bios and what you talk about is dysfunction, and no better time than today to really talk about what. If it's the executive leadership that's dysfunctional and the workforce has no permission to speak at that level, how do you help people that are not in a key role in the dysfunction is at the key role?
Speaker 3:It's such a great question because we tend to have more experience working with leaders below the senior leadership group, who have this image of themselves of not doing anything wrong or not needing any help and their way is perfectly fine.
Speaker 3:And so when next level leaders are even below to Heather's point, they say, well, I can't do anything about it, so I just tread water until the leadership changes or I find another job, instead of saying what can I do and what is my model for leading and what are my leadership values? Because I can do something within the context of my function that enhances productivity, enhances alignment and brings people together in that more collaborative fashion. And so, again, if you look at when people go into that more self-protective, powerless, I'm a victim, poor me, I can't do anything about it. That's what leads to greater dysfunction, because they're the ones that ultimately are going to get the finger pointed at them for not doing anything at all by senior leadership. And senior leadership loves to say it's that one guy, we'll just get rid of them and all of our problems will go away.
Speaker 4:Just to add to that, a lot of the CEOs that we work with in the executive teams like this is a very common thing for us to observe where it is the CEO and their behavior that's creating this disruption or this dysfunction in the cohesiveness or the effectiveness of the team.
Speaker 4:But what we say as we work with all the executives around them is that they have to lead in reality, not in the ideal. So in the ideal world, yes, their CEO would be superhuman, perfect at everything and highly effective at everything, but that's not reality. So when we come into reality and we say, okay, well, what do you need to do to recognize that, yes, your CEO has these gaps, but what are you doing to close those gaps, individually or collectively? So there is a lot that we can do with an executive team to shore up in and around the CEO, so that we're not always making it about well, the CEO has to change in order for this all to work. It's like no, look at it as an ecosystem and you've got strengths and weaknesses within that ecosystem around the CEO, and all we're trying to do is manage and navigate to close those gaps and to make that ecosystem work more effectively with all of the pieces that fit within that ecosystem.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. How do you help leaders that are listening today, that are non-confrontational and don't want to address issues, because there are some people that are like, yeah, I hope it fixes itself. I'm just going to put my head in the sand. I hope, when I pull it out, that problem goes away. How do you help leaders that are sitting on the fence and just they're?
Speaker 3:The first thing that they have to do is step out of their feelings about not liking something and recognizing that resolving issues is a key component of a leadership role. And what do they need? To develop up some conflict skills. The other thing about this is we often look at issues as being much bigger than they really are, and part of that is because we project all kinds of fear about oh, if I say something, I'm going to get fired or some other catastrophic event is going to happen if I put my toe into that water. But it's, what can I do and how do I say it?
Speaker 3:Some of the coaching that we do with this level of leaders is getting them to recognize the personality type of their leader and how to have maximum impact at raising issues in a less direct, less confrontational, less emotional fashion, so that the conflict is almost like presenting a business case. If we don't deal with this, if something doesn't happen, it's going to have this impact on your reputation and on the business, for example, and so it's wordsmithing it in a way and not shying away from the skill that actually needs to be developed by leaders at this next level, because, you know, not like in conflict, hey, by leaders at this next level Because you know not like in conflict, hey who does? But it can be a cop out, it can be an excuse for just not having those skills or looking in and saying what do I need to develop?
Speaker 2:Thank you Really appreciate it, Heather, as you're looking at it from different angles, which I love the two different perspectives, and it's mother, daughters, and we'll lean into that in a second how do you show up to feel that your opinion is well received and there's more than one perspective to address a common issue that we all see? So what's your perspective on helping me deal with conflict when I'm very uncomfortable with it?
Speaker 4:Well, I think one of the things we talk to our clients about is to really get clear on what the actual issue is. And oftentimes people will have been living with a situation for a while and they've got a story that they've told themselves, that's been built up in their mind or they've personalized it, but it's about their boss or it's about their boss's behavior. And we have to really separate out as Anne had said earlier, that you know, let's separate out the facts from the feelings. Right, because I can't resolve feelings, but I can resolve issues. And so what is the actual issue? And then, when we understand that actual issue, then saying what are the options for solving for that? And that changes the discussion and the dynamic. And I'll give you a for example.
Speaker 4:So one of my clients struggles with her CEO, boss, and so she ends up walking away from conversations feeling like, you know, she's not doing something right, that he doesn't value her work, that he doesn't value her perspective. So there's the story she walks away from those interactions with. When we look at it from an issue perspective, it's what's the actual issue? Well, the issue for her is that she's actually not getting to a place of clarity and alignment with her CEO because he struggles to define things in a way that's clear, and so he'll give her information or he'll give her a reaction, but he doesn't actually get into really sitting down and talking through it with her in a way that they can connect on it, and then she feels like she can take it away, lead and be successful in that environment. So as we navigate that, it's her changing her perspective about what it is that she thinks her boss should be doing for her and looking at what do I need to do to lead myself in this situation? How do I stop judging him? And then, all of a sudden, it's not about the conflict she doesn't have to fix, something that's going on between her or her boss. It's these little things that we start to sort of adjust around our interpretation of the event, our expectation of someone else's behavior, our own belief about what our role is in this dynamic. And then what can we start to introduce? And so she's now introducing lots of different structures and processes and to make sure that she's getting to what she needs to. And she's leading him through that process to support him, but ultimately to support her own success and her own sense of satisfaction and well-being in the role that she's in.
Speaker 4:And so there was no big conversation. To Anne's point, there was no sort of you know, we gotta pound our fists and duke something out here. From that perspective, it's like there's an issue, but let's name the issue. Let's really get clear about the issue. Let's like there's an issue, but let's name the issue. Let's really get clear about the issue.
Speaker 4:Let's separate out what's going on in us and our interpretation, our judgments, our emotions that are all clouding it, and then look at sort of some of the different things we can try. And there's trial and error with some of this, especially at the leadership level, like if you can try something, I often will say to clients look, you got to be prepared for the first three no's, right? So because we're getting got to get past those first three no's to get to the S, and so change your mindset, because a lot of the what we create ourselves we're not always aware of what we're bringing into the situation that's actually expanding or extending what is actually going on and again leaving us feeling powerless. And we don't want leaders to feel powerless in any situation that they're in.
Speaker 2:Both of you have given a lot to unpack. I will lean into behavior change first. It's notoriously very challenging for behavior change, for most human beings to change this thing that I may have have gotten me to the pivotal point of being in a leadership role, of being in an executive role, and all of a sudden, dynamics have changed, changed, requirements have changed, the organization has changed and now you're asking me, after 15 years or 20 years of doing it this way, to change my behavior. What have you done in the past that's helped people be able to navigate through this change of my behavior?
Speaker 3:To reference a point that Heather brought up earlier around managing expectations, when you understand how quote unquote lazy our brains actually are, it's they're wired to do the same thing that they've always done, because when we try and do something different, the brain goes on high alert. It's like what the heck's going on here and why are you wanting me to do this? And I feel incompetent and I don't know how I'll look if I do it this different way. And so if we don't expect that it will take time and that we have to be patient and compassionate and supportive with ourselves during a change process and we don't buy our own script around hey, this is hard and it doesn't need to change anyway. Script around hey, this is hard and it doesn't need to change anyway, that may you know.
Speaker 3:We see we can step slowly out of our resistance and build those new neural pathways that ultimately make new things easier for us. But it's an expecting resistance and normalizing resistance and being patient with oneself that leaders in general don't have a lot of time for, and so that's why they'll say, okay, everyone else can change, but we really don't need to. I don't have time for this. I don't have time to change my behavior. But you can, because that's a really good idea what you're proposing. We've had so many clients who will do this, but the brain wants to stay the same.
Speaker 2:And you're absolutely right too, when you think of it, Ann is we do expect the workforce to change sooner than we change, but there's just leaders go first. So if you want the change to happen, then you've got to model it sometimes. So I'm glad you're leaning into that. How does the leader show up in that space? Anything you want to add to that, Heather?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think one of the things we sort of treat behavioral change is this intellectual exercise where it's like, ok, I think I need to behave like X, but right now I'm behaving like Y and so I'll just flip the switch and suddenly it'll happen. Right. And as opposed to really understanding, where you know what is actually required for us as human beings around behavioral change, obviously motivation we have to want to change. It's got to be part of it. But one of the things that we find works the best is thinking about how do we do it for, how do we do it with, how do we do it in a way that supports? And so it's not so simple as saying just go and we're going to make. That's like we recognize that the best behavioral change comes, like the most effective way comes when we're actually in and those leaders are being supported. They're having their hands held. Sometimes the behavior is being done for them first, so they can see it. Because we have a lot of clients who have grown up in their organizations and they only know what they know. So now you say, well, we have to behave differently in this environment. It's like, well, you look around and it's like, well, what does that look like? I don't even know what that means. And so how do we give them the help that they actually need?
Speaker 4:Because there is this tendency of leaders to think they can do, because they're smart people, they think they can do everything, and then they run the risk of not being able to follow through on the behavioral change.
Speaker 4:The other thing we look at is what's the system or process that supports the behavioral change, because a lot of the times is that, you know, we just talk about the behavioral change but we don't say, okay, well, what's the system I need around me to support me to sustain that?
Speaker 4:So, whether that's accountability so someone's holding me accountable, or I'm putting in new meetings or touch points, or I've got a new form to work from that I use to follow, to really practice and ingrain this new behavior, and so there's a lot of pieces and tools that go into it. And I do think that where leaders, especially at the executive level, where they don't want to be touched and they don't want to be helped in that way and they think they can do it all on their own, and having them work through just that piece of the resistance to allow themselves to be supported in a way that really gets them to that behavioral change that's necessary. That's one of the first pieces of the work that we're typically doing is to get them warmed up and ready so that they can be helped through this process.
Speaker 3:Doing is to get them warmed up and ready so that they can be helped through this process. And just to add to Heather's point about leaders they often don't know what they don't know relative to what's being expected of them from a behavioral change, and so the whole topic of employee engagement, for example. They immediately go to well, what am I supposed to do? Ask all of my employees what they did on the weekend, or take them out for coffee, and we can make assumptions that they actually know what we're talking about, because they will never say to you I have no idea what you're asking me to do here with this behavioral change, because they should know. It's a fundamental belief of I'm a good leader. I should know, and therefore I can't ask any questions about what's being expected of me now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're spot on. Both of you are as far as like. What are the expectations? How do you be able to make the shift across the board and ask for help and leaders are. It's very difficult when you get to the executive level to say what you don't know, because there's this unwritten expectation that you should know and I think the language they tie around. That is like this imposter syndrome, especially if you're in a room full of other CEOs. You definitely are not going to showcase what you don't know in that space because it just doesn't feel safe.
Speaker 2:Let's shift a little bit. You're in the business, I'm an entrepreneur, so I want to speak to the entrepreneurs on this particular piece and you're in business as a family and you're women. What are some of the challenges? First of all, for working together as family, but also coming up and building a business as a woman in the business, there are challenges. Can you speak to the family part? What are some things you learned along the way as a family and what are some things you've done really, really well to work better together as family?
Speaker 4:I'll start that one off. Anne and I have a little bit of a different backstory because Anne's my biological mother and she gave me up for adoption when I was born, so I was raised in an adopted family and Anne and I reunited when I was 28. And we actually started our business together three years later, so we were actually still forging our relationship. I'm 28 when Anne and I met, so I wasn't really looking for a mother, so we were actually still forging our relationship. I'm 28 when Anna and I met, so I wasn't really looking for a mother, so we were trying to figure out what that relationship the personal relationship was gonna be. But we had this clear connection and common ground around the work we were doing. I was doing it in organizations, helping organizations to achieve their potential. She was working individually with leaders and we just saw this huge opportunity to bring these two pieces together and forge a path jointly, and so we started our business 26 years ago.
Speaker 4:So it's been a different kind of journey than, I think, most other mother daughters, because you know, I didn't have the whole teenage angst with my mother, so, but we did have to figure out what was this all going to be, and I think that was really helpful for us both as entrepreneurs and in our relationship, is we had to be a little bit more definitive around what we wanted, what was going to work, what wasn't going to work, having to sort of you know there was a little bit of trial and error around it sort of you know there was a little bit of trial and error around it, without a doubt.
Speaker 4:But I think, as any entrepreneur, you're having to look at you yourself and your role in the business and what it is that you're looking for from it as an individual, and what's that separation of you from your business?
Speaker 4:And again, as consultants too, it's also different, because our businesses are expertise and so there's a lot in there where some of the things that I know I learned really had to increase my level of self-awareness. I had to increase my level of emotional astuteness, my emotional IQ for sure, in order to be able to navigate it, because it's not a family dynamic, because it's a business and yet there's family relational pieces to it, and so the more you can be aware of and be able to move into some of these honest conversations as you go through and as you grow through, because 26 years together. There was a lot of growing we were doing through this process of being entrepreneurs and running our business, and so I think that those are a couple of things that I would lead off of, and then Em can maybe talk about the whole women in business side of it a bit more than I did.
Speaker 2:Thank you for transparency. You're right, it is a different relationship, but I know that there's someone listening that understands and say, hey, man, thanks for sharing that. Even with a different daughter mother relationship later on in life, you share something that most people don't naturally hear. When you're on stage or when you're in a room and there's someone paying attention to this and say how do I do it, how do I navigate so I get it? We have a teenager at home. So that does change those relationships because they're trying to figure out and you're trying to just keep them in the guidelines and with the guidepost up. So thank you for sharing. So, anne, what do you add to it? I mean, as far as the relationship or women in business, where do you want to go at with it?
Speaker 3:Well, a couple of things that come to mind around. This is one of the things that all partners, regardless of whether it's a marriage or a business partnership, whatever is that the challenges of becoming a we and navigating your individual agenda especially if you have an entrepreneurial brain because you want to just run with your own idea and doing that in the context of building a relationship with two different approaches to working that Heather and I had. There was a lot of navigating that without at first having the language to talk about it, and Heather and I co-created a personality system called the striving styles, and it was through that period of time where we really dug down into recognizing how different our brains are, how different our needs are in terms of what our need satisfiers at work and in relationships are, which really helped us move ahead in our relationship and give it, you know, giving us more space to do our individual thing within the context of the we that we had created together. It's a very challenging thing. To your point of you know, both of our styles are relatively conflict avoidant, so it wasn't that we loved conflict and we didn't have that familial foundation of you know. Well, I'm your mother and you're going to do what I say or I'm the daughter you have to. Let me have my way. You know there wasn't any of that there. It was simply navigating it together.
Speaker 3:And in terms of being a consultant and an entrepreneur, as a woman, you know, I've had an experience, you know, working with a group of engineers, for example, where I have said to them I would not be in this room with you if I wasn't a consultant, because you have no women on your leadership team, because you'll take advice from me, sort of, and you'll let me help you, because you'll take advice from me, sort of, and you'll let me help you, but you will not let me be a part of it. And that was very eye-opening. And I think, to some degree, we are able to make really find our own runway with male-dominated businesses like the ones that we've worked in engineering, construction and everything, mining, things like that, because of the way we approach things, because of our own personality types. So it's sort of taking the we're women and we're telling you men, this it's no, we are showing you what is possible for you should you decide to adopt these behaviors or these practices in your business.
Speaker 2:I mean I totally agree. I mean, at some point you know it's not what you walk in the door with, but you're aware that it's there, but you have an expertise and a service to provide to help them get better. And so as you think about entrepreneur I love that you say you know if you're an entrepreneur you have these brains that kind of have this agenda, that what you want to get accomplished and overcoming that as you do the work that you do. The other question I have that came to mind as you were speaking leaning in forward, trust is at an all-time low across our society and at some point you have to build that to be an entrepreneur or a team or a partner. How do you help leaders that are listening, that are struggling with establishing trust with the people that they lead and keeping it long-term?
Speaker 4:It's a really good question. It's funny too, because it's not something that I would have said, you know, I was really conscious of how do I get my clients to trust me, how do I get my clients to follow me. But it's something that, as a result of kind of who I am, how I behave, who Anne is, how she behaves, that we've fostered, that A lot of our clients work for us for in some of them, decades We've been with them. They've maybe changed organizations and they bring us along. I have a client recently who absolutely hates consultants and yet I'm in there working with them, and so I think part of it is there's a lot that's gone on where and we see it too where ego is so much about and not necessarily ego from that look at me and look at how great I am, but almost from that place of ego I don't want people to see me or I don't want people not to like me or I don't. You know I have to behave in a particular way and so some of the behavior that comes for that people pick up really quickly when they don't feel like their leader is genuine or they don't feel like their leader is really able to sort of lead them and give them something that they can follow or a place that they can belong to. And from that perspective, where we watch some of our clients who just struggle to sort of show up and so their staff really feel that vacuum around them. And trust me, I'm not talking about being relational or being, you know, touchy feely, because every one of my clients will tell you that's not what I am and it's got a similar brain style. We're logical, we're objective, we're sort of very left brain as females, and so I'm not saying it from that oh, you got to get in, you got to really know these people and you got to, you know, spend a whole bunch of time with it.
Speaker 4:It's there's something else where allowing people to feel like they're safe, that they're heard, that someone is thinking about them and where we're going with things, and it doesn't have to be sort of on a big scale, and I think we've lost some of that. I think I know leaders that I work with where they're not really thinking about that place of. Do my staff feel like I'm giving them something to follow, something to anchor them, something where they feel safe? And so that ambiguity, I think, is a huge challenge for us as a society across the board, and I think that people are more likely, because they've got language today to put to words like psychological safety and bullying and harassment, but they don't really quite understand it.
Speaker 4:And so, you know, there's just something in there where leaders have to show up and just show up and be solid in saying this is it, this is the direction. You know, this is what you can expect, this is what I expect of you. That's where the safety and security comes from, and I think we're missing that to a great degree, and hence the reason why we do the work we do right is like we're the ones you know, know like you and your wife are doing is we know and understand the importance of leaders in all of this, and not just in organizations, but also in their rollover into how they impact out in society as well.
Speaker 2:I mean you're hitting on everything that I think is going to benefit people that are listening is that thing of leaders showing up and providing this safe space and know that you're going to be taken care of. So I can take some risk. You know anything you add to that, anne?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was thinking about. You know, leaders too get the wrong idea because of what's being imposed on them, as Heather said, about the notion that they're responsible for their employees' psychological safety, and they get some idea that they have to tend to employees' emotions Anxiety, for example. An employee will say, oh, this is making me so anxious, I'm feeling so overwhelmed. And instead of the leader saying, okay, you know, I see that you're feeling that way. Let's unpack what's going on with you so that we can sort out those triggers and we can take a step-by-step approach to your work in a way that's not generating anxiety. But instead what they do is a client of mine, for example, when her direct report came in crying because she was overwhelmed and she sent her home for the rest of the day instead of delving into what is the actual issue.
Speaker 3:Nice way to get a half a day off, right, but it doesn't help when we're over focusing on emotions and not really helping the employee to manage and developing in them the skill for themselves to say what's triggering this. I can master my job, I know how to do this and not let emotions get in the way. But when leaders have this idea that they have to be therapists or counselors or tend to emotions, then there's reduced productivity and it becomes really problematic, because if you've got one person doing it and that become you know they're allowed to make emotions the main event, then other people are going to start doing it too.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I think you hit on something. That's super important, though, anne, is there is this unwritten, unspoken expectation that leaders have to be coaches or therapists or counselors, because when that shows up, the easiest way is to let them go home and you don't have to deal with it. But isn't there an expectation that a leader is going to have to have some level of coaching ability to unpack I love that you used the word too, anne, she dropped it in for us unpacked, so thank you for that. But is there some level that I think leaders coming aboard now have to have some level of ability to coach or counsel not necessarily be therapists, but an ability to unpack what's happening versus send people home.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, and it's what we say is separating out what's the issue and what's the feeling. Right, you know we can't solve for emotions, and that means I can't solve for my employees emotions, that's not my responsibility. And so what do I need to do to boundary it? It's like, okay, clearly you're upset, take a moment, take a deep breath and then let's problem solve. Let's problem solve what we can.
Speaker 4:But, but part of it is again I can think about my 20 year old self as a leader going. I don't want your emotions, don't cry around me. What are you doing? I, you know it's like what do you? This is a workplace, yeah, so I had to build tolerance. Like I'm, like most leaders is like you have to build tolerance for the emotions of others, and that's the full spectrum of emotions that people might bring. But it doesn't mean I have to go in and go. Oh, you know, you poor thing. It's like what can we do for you and how can we take care of you? Because that's not our job leading right, it's I'm not their mother, so it's not my responsibility, I'm not their counselor, I'm not their therapist.
Speaker 4:But from a workplace perspective, I need to understand what is the issue that we need to solve for in the workplace so that my employee can be productive, my team can be productive, and then we can achieve the results that we need to achieve.
Speaker 4:And if it is to that point where it's not something that is resolvable, because it's something happening in their personal life, there are employee programs, there are other community supports that we can direct people to, but still the expectation is held that we need to resolve this because the work needs to be done, and I'm not, my job is not to cater, but I can tell you, I have so many clients and in the same boat where we have so many clients that cannot tolerate the emotions of others, and so because of that, we see it too on the other side. Sorry, just I think about employees who can't tolerate their managers expressing frustration, irritation. It gets like, oh, you know, they're being so mean to us and it's like, no, no, no, they're frustrated and they're irritated. It's like everybody's trying to control the emotions so much and we don't have that ability to just say, hey, we're human, so emotional expression is appropriate. But now we need to move past that emotional expression and figure out what we need to do to get the job done.
Speaker 2:I mean great way to explain it and I think you know a good part of where we are in the program now is the tolerance. I love that you say I had to work on my own tolerance for this because I didn't really want to deal with it, and I think leaders have to be okay, being human, because we feel like we got to get it right all the time. And you're not going to get it right all the time, and if I do, I'm probably going to be a little leery of them. So be human and understand that you got things you got to work on as well, so you're doing the business that you do. What are the reasons? As you think about your organization and the people that are listening to this podcast, I want to be able to make sure people know when to pick up the phone and call you or send your email. What are some things that will be happening in companies that say, hey, pick up the phone, reach out to Anna Heather you can start Heather that one, our favorite one, is you're complaining, you're complaining, you're complaining to your
Speaker 4:co-workers, you're complaining to your spouse, you're complaining to your friends is like you're. If you're in a leadership role and you find that so much of your energy is going into complaining about your staff, your boss, your co-workers, that's a sign. That's a sign that something has stalled out for you and you're stuck and that you need support in order to move through whatever those challenges are. So that would be a really good opportunity. The other thing would be frustration.
Speaker 4:So where we see a lot of our clients are frustrated with they can't get their employees to do something or they can't get their you know, it's a lot of cases, especially at the executive level. It's like their direct reports or their team isn't quite delivering what they need to be. And the third one is again where we see a lot in the organizations that we work with where they're trying to grow but they're really finding there's something misaligned between the leaders, the people and the ambition of the organization and it's not moving as quickly as the senior leaders want it to expect it to. So it would be sort of those three sort of pieces for us are typically why our clients come to us. And that's what we do. We go in and we work with them to help them solve for the actual issues, so that they can get unstuck individually as leaders or collectively as an organization.
Speaker 2:And I'll continue in a second over there. And if you listen to the entrepreneur, if you're not solving the problem, then you're probably going to be in trouble as an entrepreneur. So you want to focus on the problem solving piece of it we're not exempt from as entrepreneurs or leaders, but you know, as Annie Heather talked about it, they're always going. What's the problem? So, entrepreneurs, if you're listening, be very, very clear on the problems you solve, so people will be interested in bringing you into the organization. What would you add to it, Anne? As far as what are the things that you see you're getting the calls for?
Speaker 3:What's happening in organizations channel of people that might be coming to me specifically is we have female leaders who blame themselves because their employees are complaining about them, and that they are willing to because of their own self-image, they're willing to take on the responsibility and think that the problem is theirs, that they're been accused of being mean or they're not understanding enough, particularly in female leaders who there really is more of an expectation that they act like mothers as opposed to leaders, and those who suffer from the imposter syndrome where they are willing to believe that they aren't good enough and that, even though they have earned the right through their work to be at the table, they're still, you know, bringing coffee and cookies and whatever else to the board meetings and so that sort of client stream, especially with women. There are some men who suffer from this as well, but more women who just have such a low estimate of themselves and they are seeking the approval of others instead of just showing up with their own authority and owning their place at the table.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're spot on. Thank you for saying it too. I mean because you're absolutely right. How do you show up, have your voice in the room and I will tell you that even as a man, I'll know 6% of it and like I know 100% of it and how do you get where that's your space to be able to have those real conversations without calling anybody out, but really having a real conversation? So I'm glad that you hit on the women piece of it, how you show up when they should call you, because you're right.
Speaker 2:I mean we tend to want to for women to listen, to show up in this place like a motherly figure when you really have earned the right to be a leader. So I can be a little bit more abrasive or aggressive If a woman is it? There's some bad names that's called or some things that said that's inappropriate. How do you balance the playing field where you can still be a phenomenal, assertive leader without getting a bad rap? But I think, women, if you listen to that and you're trying to figure that out, you got two women on the screen that you can reach out to say hey, here's where I'm struggling. I'm in this role, but I'm having a really hard time and I'm tired of bringing cookies and coffee. I want to be seen as a leader in the room, so perfect opportunity. What's the best way to reach you if someone's interested in having a further conversation about the services you offer?
Speaker 4:Our website, drannitsaris-hill Durant at Saris hyphen Hilliard dot com, and hopefully you'll put that in the show notes so that it's easy for people to pick up and spell. Everything's there All of the resources, information about the books that Anne and I have written, striving Styles, personality System, as Anne talked about, access to connect with us directly through LinkedIn, but it's all there in one place. So opportunity to learn a little bit more about some of the things we do, the resources we have to offer, our YouTube channel, et cetera, all in one place. So that's Duran at Sarah's hyphen Hilliardcom.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome. Thank you for sharing Anything you want to leave the audience with. I mean anything. You want to say great wisdom, any nuggets, anything jumping out that you want to say, hey, well, I didn't get to say this. Is there anything you want to leave the audience with?
Speaker 3:One of the books that Heather and I wrote is called so you Think you Can Lead, and it's specifically from this more systematic, programmatic approach to leading employees and knowing how to behave at every stage of the employee development cycle, not just thinking that you should be able to just show up and be a great leader, because that's what leaders aspire to.
Speaker 3:I'm a great leader. Nobody can tell me anything because I'm great, but this book has it all relative to. There are things all leaders know how to do well, and then there are the things that are more difficult, and this is a how to book for leadership development and a resource guide for, oh my God, this is going on. I need to go back to my book, because employees are behaving this way. I need to know, I need some tips, tips In the absence of having a coach. And to what you said earlier about all of these senior leaders if you're a group of senior athletes professional athletes every one of them would have a coach, but senior leaders don't see it the same way, and that's a mindset that needs to change, because every day is different for leaders.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and thank you for dropping the book so you think you can lead. Y'all heard it. I think all of us can read that. There are days when I think I can. The other days I'm like how did they pick me so I get it? You know, I've had some really, really great success stories to share, but I also got some failures that I could share as well, where I didn't get it right.
Speaker 2:21 years. I became a leader very young, about 22 years old. I had no business leading at that time, I just knew my job well. I was still trying to figure out how to get my own bed made, you know.
Speaker 2:So I would say that it's a journey. Put some people around you, be okay with not knowing everything, and there'll be people. Give people opportunity to hold you accountable and help you grow. Both of you have been phenomenal. So thank you for joining, thank you for really talking about all of the things that you shared and, for those of you that are following the podcast, we release a podcast every Monday with different leaders from around the globe and the fun part about it is we just unpack the conversation. So hopefully you found some value in this. Reach out to the team. Of course, this will be in the show notes, so you'll have it. And again, this is Ron Harvey and we're signing off, and thank you all for joining us for another episode of Unpacked with Ron Harvey, and until next time, we will see you on another podcast with another leader from around the globe.
Speaker 1:We hope you enjoyed this edition of Turning Point Leadership with your host, Ron Harvey. We're so glad you joined us. Remember to join us every first and third Mondays and expect to receive real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, make a difference where you are and with what you have. There are those who are counting on you for effective leadership.
