Unpacked with Ron Harvey
People Always Matter. Join Ron as he unpacks leadership with his guests.
Unpacked with Ron Harvey
The Lasting Magic of Books in a Digital Age
This episode centers on the vital role of leadership in navigating change and adversity, drawing on former CEO of Barnes & Noble, Stephen Riggio's extensive experience in the book-selling industry and his personal journey of grief and creativity. Listeners will gain insights on effective leadership practices, the importance of adapting to change, and the power of literature in shaping our identities.
• The journey of Barnes & Noble from a single store to a retail giant
• Understanding entrepreneurship as risk mitigation
• The emotional ties entrepreneurs face with their businesses
• The impact of grief on personal and professional transformation
• Celebrating Sicilian culture through literature and history
• The enduring relevance of physical bookstores in a digital world
• Encouraging personal growth through reading
Visit SicilianAvengers.com to learn more about the book, and to connect with Stephen.
Connect with Ron
Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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Disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
Welcome to Turning Point Leadership Podcast with your host, ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. Ron's delighted you joined us and excited to discuss and help you navigate your journey towards becoming an effective leader. During this podcast, ron will share his core belief that effective leadership is one of the key drivers towards change. So together let's grow as leaders. Here's Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2:Well, good afternoon, or at least it's afternoon. Where I am, I'm in Columbia, south Carolina. Thank you for joining us. This is Unpacked with Ron Harvey, and this is the opportunity where we pause and do a lot of work with different leaders from around the globe. Our company really focuses on helping develop leaders to be more connected to their workforce. At the end of the day, that's better communication, that's more trust, empowering people, delegating to people, allowing people to be their best self in your organization, which we spend a lot of our time talking about leadership. My wife and I own the company. We're both veterans of the army, so we understand how important leadership is that's continued to serve our military services. So we get to do it now in the public service or the private service of our country, so we love doing it.
Speaker 2:This podcast is all about our leaders coming to the table and having a conversation. What we do promise is we're going to have a conversation around leadership, but we go everywhere. We talk about books, we talk about business, we talk about what we're doing and exciting, so you'll hear that all from us. What we do promise is we'll share something around leadership, so hang on with us for 20 minutes 25 plus, as our guests come on and they share from really just who they are. It's called Unpack. They have fun. They're pretty brave because they never know what the questions are. They just come on and have fun with us. So I'm super excited If you do anything with Barnes and Nobles, if you've ever done anything. I'm super excited to have one of the former CEOs, stephen, joining us today from New York City. So let me hand the microphone to Stephen and you can share what you want to share about yourself. Stephen. I usually let all of our guests talk about themselves or what they're doing and what's happening. We'll go to some questions.
Speaker 3:Sure, good morning, it's great to be with you. I spent close to 40 years with Barnes Noble. I spent close to 40 years with Barnes Noble, so I have a lifetime of book selling experience. Our company was founded with a single store on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan and through the decades the 70s, 80s, 90s and into the aughts we gradually expanded the company until we had close to 700 stores by the time I retired in 2012.
Speaker 3:And it was an amazing career and, as you know, most people think of Barnes Noble today for those stores that are around the country, in inner cities, in suburban shopping malls and strip centers. But we actually started with a single store and it took many years for us to test different size stores, different formats, different approaches to book selling and with each step we became a little bit more audacious until we finally came up with a formula that people thought came out of thin air and it was unexpected and people said it would never work. But it had actually undergone quite a bit of testing and quite a bit of kicking the tires, if you will. Until in the mid-90s we had sort of perfected that concept that we know of as today.
Speaker 2:Wow yeah, as I was reading and the team gets information in front of me, so I know who's on and some of the history. I look back at your family, where you come from, where it started at, which we'll get into. When you think about like most of us do think, it came out of nowhere and it showed up, but there was a lot of work and you think about people that are starting entrepreneur and want to run a business or in a leadership role, what are some of the bigger challenges that you have to overcome if you're going to take this journey of leadership or entrepreneur?
Speaker 3:Well, I think entrepreneurs are often mischaracterized as risk takers.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:People that jump into something and take on risk, and I think it's more proper to define people who are entrepreneurs as those who mitigate risk rather than engage it, if you think about even someone with perhaps one of the more riskier pursuits, which is mountain climbing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:I mean, those people are up there on the mountain and they want to make sure that if a piece of equipment fails, they have plan B, and so they are probably more involved in mitigating their risks. After all, they don't want to fall off the mountain. And the same thing with an entrepreneur starting a business. They want to get a return on their investment, they want to get a return on their capital, and I think you can't be successful if you don't things that are a little unusual, if you don't break the mold, if you don't try something different. But you have to do it in a very judicious way and make sure that you have a plan B and you alter your course of action other than sticking to some emotional tie to your original idea. You need to evolve and be swift and, in some cases, decisive in changing direction.
Speaker 2:I love that you said because entrepreneurs do get stuck with their emotional attachment. I hear entrepreneurs always say, or often say, it's my baby. I say that can be disabling because most people if it's treated like a baby, doesn't get to grow and are you overprotective sometimes. So you know, I tell people when you think of it's your baby, you may not let anyone else or want anyone else to help raise your baby or to make your baby smarter or faster or brighter or more intelligent. That emotional attachment can actually cripple you or be a crutch that doesn't allow you to grow. You're releasing books and you guys are in the business of books. What drew your family to? Really that's where you started and you figured it out, because I've always believed books are where the seekers to life are at. But for your family and you growing up because you watched your brother start the company and you came in later what made it fascinating about starting a book business known as Barnes and Nobles today? And I know that's not where you started, but what started it.
Speaker 3:Well, our parents were second generation Italian-Americans. My father was a cab driver, my mother was a homemaker and, like many second generation or first and second generation Italian-Americans, they wanted their children to be better. So education and dedication and determination were very important to them.
Speaker 3:My brother, len, had worked early in his career at a college bookstore serving the NYU community down here in New York September. When students came back to buy their books he would see that there were long lines to wait for the books. Some of the books weren't on their shelf and he got very frustrated with that. So he decided he could do a better job and he opened the store around the corner. And he opened the store around the corner and one of the hallmarks of his success is that on that first day of classes he had every book on the shelf and on that first day of classes he had enough cash registers to ensure that the students wouldn't have to wait in line. So that kind of began his reputation as someone that could efficiently run a college bookstore like never before. And he went on to lease and make contracts with other college bookstores throughout the Northeast, most notably Columbia University, and he showed universities that he could run their stores better than they could, and that's the germ of how it started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I love that because you identify a problem and say I know this can be done better, I can figure it out, and I think that's the part of if not necessarily, risk-taking. But you begin to say to say, okay, what can I mitigate or minimize for people that are needing this service? So I love that idea. Can you bring us up to speed with where you decided after you went to college and coming to the business, and where did you start? Because you didn't start at ceo. You had to work your way through the organization. You had to develop some skills and also your own identity. How did you navigate that space? Because most people struggle. How do I work my way to leadership versus someone owes me leadership?
Speaker 3:Sure. Well, I did start out in the company after graduating from college and it was a small company at the time. So I did work in many different positions throughout the company and saw it grow and had increasing responsibilities. The company, and saw it grow and had increasing responsibilities, we did go public in 1993. Actually, a few years before that I think. At that time we had about 80 bookstores and we were running them.
Speaker 3:Well, I had an executive position at that time, but we purchased a larger company that had 700 stores and so it was called B Dalton Bookseller and they were based in Minneapolis. We were based in New York and one of the things that we did at that time was we moved our headquarters to Minneapolis in order to recognize the importance of the people that had built that company and that had run that company for so many years. So that was a big jump for our company and for me, and I think that was probably the biggest leap that I had in executive ability, because it was taking on something that was so much larger in scale and scope. We ultimately managed to move the headquarters back to New York and we went public in 1993. So that was another big learning curve, working in a public company is very different than a private company as I'm sure you know.
Speaker 3:So that was another big learning experience for me, and I was ultimately appointed CEO in 2002.
Speaker 2:When I think about it, stephen, I mean you said something that was huge for leaders to understand, regardless of what industry they're in. It is understanding the value of the people that did so much to get it to where it was, and so making that major move out to Minnesota and say, okay, great, we're going to get because we value the people that are with these 700 stores. But you kept making the changes necessary for you to be successful, and I know we're getting a lot of changes. But how did you navigate so much change at such a high level over a period of time, for the good of the company and the good of the people?
Speaker 3:I think you know, every company faces change on the business side, on the social side, on the culture side. What we managed to do, which was quite extraordinary, yes.
Speaker 3:In 1987, we had 700 small format stores and zero large format stores. 10 years later, we had almost zero small format stores and 700 large stores. It was about 15 years. So I think that speaks to the determination to grow. But we did it judiciously. We didn't open 700 stores overnight. It was 10 one year, then 30, then 40, then 70. And one year we opened close to 100 stores. So at each stage we were monitoring what we were doing, right or wrong.
Speaker 3:Yes, growing a company that large also meant taking care of our people, and we were very much, I think, at the forefront of the type of policies that have almost become common in American corporations. We were the first major corporation to offer family leave policy and we also offered domestic partner coverage in healthcare. That was unheard of at the time. What year was that? Well, oh, that was in the late nineties. We were listening to our employees. Wow, I mean, you have to have this dialogue with your employees and always, healthcare, as you probably are aware, is a very difficult thing to navigate for many companies. It's expensive, regulations are always changing, what people are expecting of healthcare is always changing and in that case I think we had a lot of foresight and we did something that was good for our employees. Some of our own executives at the time had objected to it.
Speaker 3:Yes, you know, why would we do this? It would be expensive or no one else is doing it. Yes, you know, do we really want to be at the forefront? And in some cases you do, some cases you don't. Because even though you have I don't like to call them competitors, but, let's say, colleagues in the business world other retailers, you do watch what they do when you learn from them. Yes, when you have competitors, you have to learn what they're doing. That you're not often and you have to look at them with a critical eye for what they're doing best, not what you could beat them at all the time. Retailers are not enemy combatants. We are all in the business of serving our customers. So I would always go into other retailers and I wouldn't look at what they're doing wrong, but what they're doing right, and that's always a valuable learning experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad you said that too, stephen, because oftentimes when you're an entrepreneur, especially a small business, you look at people as competitors or combatants, and we're all trying to do the best customer service across the board. So I'm loving that you're sharing that, because when you look at a company that went from the size that you were to what you became, you still had that in your mind that they're not our competitors, we're not competing against them. I do go and watch what they're doing, and you said something that's profound for everyone that's listening. Sometimes you look at what they're doing best and you may not be able to beat them at it, but you got to pay attention to what they're doing best so you can learn from it. And oftentimes we say, well, I got to beat them. You may not beat them, but you can get better at how you do it. So I love that you share that.
Speaker 2:That's a nugget that you hear from someone that's been exposed to it is doing it. Let's talk about the book that you're releasing and the work that you're doing and where it came from. So you're writing this book or you're starting to translate it. Let's put it that way, right Share with the audience the book that you're translating and what drew you to translate it for us into English speaking audience in the first place? What drew you to do that?
Speaker 3:Well, I could begin by saying that I had retired in 2012.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:In 2008,. We had lost our daughter, melissa, after a year-long battle she had with leukemia, and it was a tough time. As I like to say, all happy families are alike, but all grieving families grieve in their own way, to paraphrase Tolstoy, and I was looking for a way for my wife and I to move forward. I was looking to open a new door for us, find a way forward, open a new chapter in our lives, and I came up with the idea of studying the Italian language together. Now, I am of Italian descent, on my father's side Sicilian, so I always had an interest in the language. I did study it earlier in life, but I had dropped it. So it was the start of a new journey for us, and a few years into that journey, our professor gave us a book in Italian to read and it looked very difficult. It looked very imposing. It was a thousand pages and I thought we would read one or two or three chapters together.
Speaker 3:But my wife and I became hooked on the story. It's a hundred-year-old novel, very much in the vein of Alexandre Dumas. It's a swashbuckling adventure story. I had loved that type of story when I was a kid, so I was a very heavy reader. So we were reading it and I decided to look for an English translation to see how we were doing, and I discovered it did not exist. So you know, we were talking about my career in bookselling before and, as I say, we often did audacious things and I thought let me try something audacious in my retired life. And, as a writer friend of mine has recently said to me, she said Steve, how did you do this? Most men retire and they take up golf.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:I don't play golf, so it was certainly a challenge for me, but one that I enjoyed. And I ultimately completed the translation and have published it in two volumes, as you can see Sicilian Avengers, book 1 and Book 2. And while reading the book, as an interesting little tidbit, the main character of the book is an orphan. And while I was researching, translating the book, translating it, my wife and I made four trips to Sicily and I undertook a deep dive into my family's ancestry and traced it back 400 years, oh my goodness. And I discovered that my grandfather was an orphan. So I feel that I was destined to translate this book. All the pieces seem to come in place. As I say in the acknowledgements, it's my deepest wish that this thing never existed. You know we came to this because of the loss of our daughter, but her presence in it is undeniable and it was almost a gift that we were given. So it was published last week. It's two volumes. It's very much in the vein, as I said, of Dumas. It's an adventure story. My wife Laura says it's got something for everyone. It's a love story, an adventure story, a historical novel. There's plenty of intrigue in the book where characters are. There's twists and turns where you don't know, perhaps, what's going to take place.
Speaker 3:And, interestingly, the book was written by Luigi Natoli. He wrote 30 novels and they were all written as serial novels, like Charles Dickens did in the 19th century. So he had a skill like one chapter would come out every few days or every week. So he had a particular skill in keeping readers hooked and they would await with bated breath what would happen next. And he was also a scholar and a historian, so he was deeply rooted in European and Sicilian history. And there are fictional characters in the book and historical characters. So it has a sense of it, breathes with believability and reality, although it's fiction. Reality although it's fiction. And the thrust of the story for people that want to know is that it's about a secret sect in Sicily that existed in the early 18th century, who some believe were forerunners of the Sicilian mafia. So that's the kind of intrigue and mystery about the story.
Speaker 2:When was the first story written? How many years ago, because you went back and you traced back your family history over 400 years. But when is the first story written on Sicilian Avengers?
Speaker 3:The book was published in 239 installments between 1910 and 1912 or 1911. So you know it's a thousand pages. So he had the skill, he was a great writer.
Speaker 3:And he was a teacher and a historian. His books were later banned by the Mussolini government because he was an ardent anti-fascist. By the Mussolini government because he was an ardent anti-fascist. Yes, he was very rooted in his own belief, in a sense of justice which is the heart of the story. Where do people turn? At the time of the novel, sicily was still a feudal society. Yes, and the power was in the hands of the barons, the aristocrats.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the power was in the hands of the barons, the aristocrats.
Speaker 3:The Inquisition, the Catholic Church's Inquisition, was still in effect, so people were jailed, tortured and executed for heresy, and so Natoli took all of these threads that were in the historical record and weaved a novel around it, because he had a storytelling gift.
Speaker 2:I love that after retirement, you didn't go to the golf course and dealing with grief allowed it to become a gift to you. Like you say, everybody grieves different and families go through something different. What's the story to someone that may be listening that's trying to navigate some of the landscape you had to navigate dealing with grief, and how do you find yourself and find something to keep you going every day?
Speaker 3:Well being in the book business, it was natural for me to reach out and read many of the books on grieving. One could just go online and search for them and you get a perspective from other writers of how they dealt with it. But it's a hard thing to give advice to people about because, as I said, it's something inside of you. There's no textbook on how to deal with that and especially with the loss of a child. I think everyone grieves in their way.
Speaker 3:For me and for my wife, it was imperative that we build, go forward. We have two other daughters and now two grandchildren, so it was imperative for us to move ahead and it just so happened I was retired soon after not at that time, but it almost gave me a reason also to retire. Yes, I was working for 40 years. We lost a child. What is the next phase of my life going to be like? And so, as I said, I'm not happy that it turned out this way. I would have preferred a different path, but we're here today and I'm happy that, in a bittersweet way, she gave me this gift.
Speaker 2:Yes, and thank you for your transparency Because I think, as people, whether you're in a leadership role or formally or informally that people are watching, people are listening and they learn from our journey and it'd be slightly different, but they'll learn because you're speaking to someone that's listening. We started off about your role with Barnes Noble. We go into. You know you shared about the loss of a child, which I don't think any parent wants to go through at all, and then you talk about the book. What do you want readers to walk away with from the fact that you've translated this book? What do you want them to get from the book?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I'm very aware as an Italian-American, as in a Sicilian-American with deep ancestry into the place where my grandparents and ancestors came from, that Italian-Americans and Sicilian-Americans have been victims of stereotypical portrayals in the media. Yes, and we know what those are. Yes, tv series, movies and the like, and what I want them to come away with is a better understanding of Sicilian history. The book is rooted in history and to appreciate how it does come through in the book a bit. But if you become interested in Sicilian history, you find out that America, of course, is a nation of immigrants. Where I live, new York, is a melting pot, yes, but Sicily has it beat on every front. For 2,000 years.
Speaker 3:Sicily was conquered, invaded and settled by Greeks, romans, arabs, normans, byzantine Empire, the Spanish. Yet it absorbed those cultures and you could see it when you go to Sicily, or especially to Palermo, which is a wonderful city. You see it in the culture, in the language there are many Sicilian words that are rooted in Arabic you see it in the buildings, you see it in the food, you see it in the people. It's an amazingly multicultural, diverse society and the other thing I would like people to do, so have a different view of Sicily than you know.
Speaker 3:People say you're Italian American, they immediately think mafia. Yes, you know, and that's terrible. Yeah, the other thing I want people to do is to finish the book, close the last page and buy a plane ticket to Sicily. Yeah, because my wife Laura calls it. The wild beauty of the landscape is something that is breathtaking, so not just in Palermo and in the big cities, but if you get out into the hinterlands it's quite beautiful. It's quite beautiful and there's all small towns and the people are so welcoming and friendly. There's nowhere to eat better than for me, than there.
Speaker 2:You've covered so much territory and shared so much from different aspects of your life. You've been a reader all your life. You've enjoyed it. What do you tell leaders that don't read as often as they should? What's the value of becoming a reader as a leader?
Speaker 3:as they should. What's the value of becoming a reader? As a leader, I would usually not tell people to read business books or self-help books. I don't get much out of them. I think most of them are well-intended and have common sense behind them and if you put them all together, they're basically offering the same advice. Sometimes I say go read Barbara Tuchman's the March of Folly, which is a history book about five different episodes in history where countries acted contrary to their own self-interest.
Speaker 3:So it's almost like the Trojans letting in the horse, great Britain just not really understanding the American colonies, america's fiasco in Vietnam, things like that, where you're doggedly, determinantly going against every sort of reason or against the facts in pursuit of your own folly. But I think reading just makes you a more broader individual, whether you read fiction or nonfiction, or history or literature or science. I think it makes you a more complete human being.
Speaker 2:Wow, yes, yes, We've shifted a lot before. You know. Barnes Noble had to change and there's so much of an online presence. Where do you see the future of books for us as a society? Will we be online or do you think that our brick and mortar stores will always have a place in our society?
Speaker 3:Ever since we were in business, people predicted the demise of reading and of bookstores. Back in the 70s and 80s, when I think it was the first Atari video game appeared, it was said oh, kids are not going to read anymore. And you had cable television growing in the 80s and 90s. And then the Internet, and then video games became ever more dominant. Yes, and now social media, but interestingly there are as many bookstores today as there were Barnes Noble stores as there were 10 years ago. So it's been a remarkably resilient industry. It's larger than the movie business, Unlike the music business where the physical product is not as important.
Speaker 3:People want to hold books. Having books in your home is a reflection of your background, your interests. It shows what you're interested in. Whenever I go into someone's home, I look at their books. It gives you a clue as to what might you know. Anything could lead, of course, to conversation, but then there are art books and there are cookbooks and all sorts of visual books that cannot be replicated in a digital format. Yes, so I think people always will hold on to the idea of books, physical books, having value, and that's not to say other formats haven't helped. Digital books are great, eBooks and I believe the fastest growing part of the business now is audio books.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:Sicilian Avengers is available and will be available next month as an audio book.
Speaker 2:Awesome.
Speaker 3:Thank you so it's a resilient business.
Speaker 2:I travel and I've never gone through an airport where there's not books on sale. It's always a place to buy books and I still like hard copy books. I do have digital, but I love getting on an airplane and just having a hard copy book in my hand. I can pull it out without powering up anything. It's easier, more accessible for me, quite honestly, and I can highlight it. So I'm still telling myself on the age. I like to highlight stuff and go back and read it again and how do I use it and leverage it. So I'm still into that phase of doing it. So I like hard copy. You shared about the book. Where do people get it, how do people get in touch with you and if people are interested in bringing you on the podcast to continue to promote the book, I want to make sure that you share that opportunity to have people reach you to share your book as well.
Speaker 3:Well, they can go to SicilianAvengerscom and they could read about the book, about myself, about the original author of the book. My email is on the site if you look under contact. Yes, so I'm happy to talk to people via email and people that can reach out and talk to me about after having read the book or before having read the book. It's something that I'd be happy to do.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll be in New York City next month, so I'll reach out to you and if I can get it you know I'm a novice to New York City, so I'll land and catch a cab and if I'm anywhere close to you I'll be happy to make sure that I purchase and get an autograph from you and keep it on my bookshelf and pass that along through my family. So I'll be in New York City the 18th and 19th of November. I'll send you an email with information, but if there's any way for us to probably connect, I would love to get an autograph from you while I'm there. So I'll support what you're doing as well. So are you on LinkedIn?
Speaker 3:Is there any other place where people can follow you and reach out to you? The best place is SicilianAvengerscom. I have an email called srigio at protonmailcom.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's the best place. Awesome, awesome, thank you. So what do you want to leave with our leaders today in regards to our conversation, unpacked, or leadership, or books? What are some things that you would like to say, hey, what do you want them to take away from this conversation today?
Speaker 3:Well, of course, I would like them to go to my website and buy the book and to have a new perspective on Italian-Americans and Sicilian-Americans. I want them to know that my career in bookselling was probably the most rewarding career I could ever have asked for, and bookstores are an important part of American culture. So I encourage them to shop in bookstores, visit bookstores, buy books for their kids, buy books for themselves, because there is no better form of way of entertaining yourself or of learning. We always looked at bookstores as places for people who aspire to learn, and I think that that's continuing today, and I think it will continue in decades to come. Bookstores aren't going anywhere.
Speaker 2:Yes, I truly agree with you, a hundred percent. We have three kids in our family and they say, hey, continue to read, continue to educate yourself. I mean, you're just a one click away, or one book away, from learning what you need to learn, so continue to-.
Speaker 3:That's a good way of putting it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's been great. Thank you for coming on the show. We're always excited to hear from people that are writing books, that are doing great things. That's adding value. Our company spends a lot of time like how do we just give back to people? And that's where we are in our careers how do we give back and help people continue to be the best version of themselves? And so thank you for going back and translating Sicilian Avengers into English for us, and you're going to put it in audio format. So it's going like wildfire as well and for everyone that's listening. Please follow us.
Speaker 2:Ron Harvey on Global Core is our company. You can find that, but I'm also on LinkedIn. Reach out to either one of us. We love to support you on a podcast or bring people on a podcast. We're business owners. I'm not where Stephen is. He's retired and writing good books out there or translating them. I'm still working, so I'll get there soon, but please follow us. Please share the link to this podcast. We are happy to support you in your journey as well and continue reading books and buying books, as Stephen said. So until next time, stephen and I will sign off and we wish you the best and hope you enjoy the podcast and we share something that will actually make you more effective as a leader and a better reader.
Speaker 1:We hope you enjoyed this edition of Turning Point Leadership with your host, Ron Harvey. We're so glad you joined us. Remember to join us every first and third Mondays and expect to receive real answers for real leadership challenges. Until next time, make a difference where you are and with what you have. There are those who are counting on you for effective leadership.
